Ethnic groups

[Azure Trance]

"I stand by my ethnic slur: the French are filthy, pretensious savages!"

By the same token...Asians tend to be smaller than whites, but look at that Yao guy, or Akebono. Do either of those guys look like they took a -2 Strength?

Hehe. Obviously Yao is a 12th level expert, duhhh

 

[Ace]

The WoT game is a great example of how to do this. It makes 3-4 skills "class skills" for anyone coming from a specific area. They also have regional feats - and the bonus human feat must come from one of the 4-5 regional feats that each region has access to. This does a few good things IMO - In the horsemen kingdom everyone has Ride but you could be the odd man out and are not forced to put skill points into Ride. Everyone gets a more or less even shake using this system and it allows you to pick an origin area that will complement the type of PC you want to develop.

Rolemaster also had some good stuff.

Agreed on both counts. My houserules are pretty much the same as the WOT. Each person gets 4 background skills that are "open" to him or her and acess to regional feats. All of the rest is roleplayed.

 

[kenjib]

The WoT game is a great example of how to do this. It makes 3-4 skills "class skills" for anyone coming from a specific area. They also have regional feats - and the bonus human feat must come from one of the 4-5 regional feats that each region has access to.

I like regional feats. I also like favored classes. d20 Modern has a better system for adding class skills though. The problem with straight up assigning class skills is that it actually discourages people from playing the types of classes that should naturally come from an area.

Example:

The northmen are hardy survivalists, knowledgable in the secrets of nature.

ethnic class skills: Wilderness lore, knowledge (nature)

Okay, looks good? Well, the problem is that if someone plays a barbarian or ranger northman, they get no benefit from taking this ethnicity! Thus, you get most benefit as a northman from taking something else that doesn't already have these class skills, like rogue or fighter.

d20 Modern adds something extra to fix this problem. Before d20 Modern came out, I also independently arrived at roughly the same solution, which is how I can second guess the motivation. The fix is to say that if a character takes a class at first level that already has these skills as class skills, they gain a +1 competence bonus to them.

As a final note, the bonuses should be granted not based on ethnic heritage, but based on where the character spent his formative years. Thus, if a Zantaran grows up in the Northlands, adopted by a Northman family, he gets the Northman traits, not the Zantaran ones.

---Summary---

Ethnic groups have:
1. Favored class
2. The option to take cultural feats
3. Bonus class skills
4. For any bonus skill that is already a class skill at first level due to selected character class, a +1 competence bonus is gained.

 

[KitanaVorr]

Re: Re: Re: Ethnic groups

Originally posted by Azure Trance
Italians are a common one I've seen often. They trade and are born merchants. +2 CHA. They need to be balanced though ... hm ... their love of money tends to make them short sighted. -2 WIS. Voila.

I fail to see why an Italian wouldn't find this stereotype offensive. With these ability scores you're saying...All Italians are charming, love money, and are short-sighted.

If you're going to make psuedo-Italians..why not just give them a different name? Why call them Italians?

I prefer the cultural skill/feats. Why don't you just allow Italians to take a feat or a skill that has something to do with the merchant class instead of an ability bonus/negative?

 

[KitanaVorr]

Ok, I have to bite... why is it wrong to recognize the differences in human beings?

Part of why we have been so successful as a species is because of our extremely adaptive nature. We live in practically every climate, high or low, in every sort of terrain and condition that is, through ingenuity and invention, habitable by human beings.

People with dark skin have dark skin due to having greater amounts of melanin, the dark pigment in skin which protects against UV damage, and is a direct result of having adapted to a predominantly outdoor lifestyle in the sun.

White people have adapted too, because of their environment they tended to spend more times indoors and therefore had less need for darker skin.

What's wrong with recognizing these facts and allowing different ability bonuses and penalties to represent them?

Ignoring the differences between people and cultures is just as bad as discriminating because of them; in fact, it IS discrimination, just of a different *ahem* colour. I don't see any reason why any reasonable human being would have a problem with aI ny reasonable, balanced, objective evaluation of each culture's and people's strengths and weaknesses.

As for the original question that started this thread, I'd recommend doing some research into the field of sociology and, to a lesser extent, anthropology. Sociology is basically the study of human culture where you'll find the most diversity in human beings anyway. The study of culture is a fascinating endeavour and I wish you all the best with your forays into it.

Cultural difference should be recognized, I agree...which is why I support the skills/feats to show that. And yes I have taken those classes and done research into that area during college.

I don't understand why there is an insistence on ability bonuses/negatives instead of feats/skills/favored classes?

Racial stereotypes have been used since time beginning to deny people access to education, basic rights, jobs, etc. Its been used as an excuse like "oh those people, they're not too smart, we don't want them in this school" etc.. The aboriginal people's plight is one example. The way the American Indians were treated. The way the Africans were made slaves and consequently treated more like animals then human beings...the list can go on and on.

I believe that supporting or encouraging racial stereotypes of humans in your game using abilities is the wrong thing to do. You're basically saying its okay to believe that "All mexicans are lazy"...etc...when in fact All mexicans are not lazy, most Mexicans are extremely hard workers and quite intelligent...just like everyone else.

No human race is "better" than another, or "smarter" than another based on genetics which are what the ability scores represent.

I like the feats/skills because it lets you customize a character. A person who's not from the region, but grew up there, should have access to the feat/skills for that region.

Besides, if the player really believes that the ability scores should be different, then when they create the character, they can just adjust what they put in there to match.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Let's stick to non-real world examples, folks.

In my homebrew campaign, I differentiate primarily along lines of religion and NPC class composition. Each of the regions of my world has its own religion and outlook on life. One pantheon has no deity with a healing domain, for example. I don't like stat bonuses/penalties, and I wasn't able to set up regional feats before the game started. I'd probably do the latter for the next campaign I run there, though.

 

[Reprisal]

Instead of thinking in terms of Ability modification, you may want to go the route of cultural differences like skill and feat selection. Most of the reasons for a person being overweight, or emaciated, or whatever are for cultural reasons. I can tell you now that it's a difference in culture that makes me, a contemporary Native American, much different physically from my ancestors. I don't have to work to survive, and all that jazz. There are some physical similarities like skin pigmentation, hair and eye colour, -- and a certain level of lactose intolerance, I hate that -- but generally speaking, most of our differences are due to how we live, not how we're born.

I approach like any player of the game would. In a point-buy character creation setting, I would sooner put my higher scores into physical stats in a wild and dangerous place than I would in mental stats -- vice versa for an individual in a relatively comfortable culture like the one I live in presently.

I guess I figure for a more "Nurture" than "Nature" type person,

- Rep.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

Another factor that would cause trouble if different types of humans have ability bonuses is ethnic mixing. What happens if say a German woman marries a Briton man? How then would you arbitrate an ability bonus?

 

[Dinkeldog]

Re: Re

*snipI in fact have an English friend...who is 240lbs at 5'5"

JM&J, that's an inch shorter than me and 85 freaking pounds heavier. I can't even picture that. It's like trying to comprehend what a billion dollars is.

 

[Azure Trance]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethnic groups

If you're going to make psuedo-Italians..why not just give them a different name? Why call them Italians?

I prefer the cultural skill/feats. Why don't you just allow Italians to take a feat or a skill that has something to do with the merchant class instead of an ability bonus/negative?

I wouldn't call them Italians in the game (play real world historical D&D? Ick). And they wouldn't be necessarily based on Italians; psuedo-Dutch is another (Hanseatic League). Essentially small kingdoms with large trade. If I give them vaguely dutch or italian sounding cities and names and customs, the PCs will know what it's 'based' on. His name is Antonio, eh? And he works for the city-state of Ravenna? I thought he was one of the good guys! Ah, these murky politics. It just adds some versimilitude [sp inc sp inc sp inc].

FYI, I never said I was against cultural feats or class races either. They can add even more depth, and given a choice between the two, I would choose the cultural feats and class races. But, I can pick both +2/-2 isn't a huge difference to me. An adventurer can make that up in 8 levels, or a minor wonderous item. Or two age categories.