Evasion for Fortitude Saves?

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Evasion for Fortitude Saves?

Disintegrate has a save of "Fortitude partial". Mettle protects against spells that do "Will half", "Fortitude half" and _similar_ effects. If a spell does half damage on a successful save, that's a reduced effect as a result of the save.

Exactly. But Disintegrate is neither "Will partial" or "Fortitude half". Also, in the case of Disintegrate, there is no reduced damage. Either you die or you take damage. That's it. I know I'm just restating the obvious, and I know that you think to not allow Mettle to help reduce the damage caused by Disintegrate on a successful save would make the ability kinda lame, but I'll get to that in a sec.

Disintegrate doesn't kill you on a successful save, it has a reduced effect as a result of the save. The intent is pretty clear, IMO.

The intent is pretty clear for me as well, in that it won't help against Disintegrate, but on the other hand, it might be better in reverse. Read on to see what I mean.

Besides which, there just aren't that many spells that do precisely half damage on a successful Will/Fort save (inflict X wounds and horrid wilting being the ones that spring to mind), and Mettle wouldn't be worth it if it was limited this way.

And a PrC ability from a splat book being kinda weak is a new thing? Nah.

It's possible that the intent was to reduce the damage caused by Disintegrate, but IMO, I don't think it was. Unless the spell says "Will partial" or "Fortitude half", it won't help, at least not in my games.

Also, there's a big difference between two spells that require a Fortitude save with the results being "Fortitude half" and Fortitude partial". Disintegrate is a pretty high level spell, and it makes sense that if you make your save, you're still gonna take some decent damage, and it makes sense that there's no way to reduce that damage. It is a seventh level spell after all.

No, taking into consideration spells that allow a Fortitude save for half damage, the ability works perfectly. Sure, there might not be that many spells like that in the Core Rules, but I attribute that more to a lack of pages and book space than those types of spells being rare. I've made many custom spells, plenty that are Fortitude half spells, most of them rays, and a good chunk of them are available in my games, both to PCs and NPCs, so it balances out. I noticed a lack of such basic spells in the core books and decided to expand the spell list. So, in my games, believe me, Mettle would help tremendously.

I see what you're saying though. If you use only the spells in the core books, Mettle is pretty weak.

But here's a small list of spells from Tome & Blood that are "Fortitude Half"...

Acid Orb, Cold Orb, Electricity Orb, Fire Orb, Great Shout (many different effects but one of the effects allows a Fort save for half damage), Ice Knife, Lesser Acid Orb, Lesser Cold Orb, Lesser Electric Orb, Lesser Fire Orb, Lesser Sonic Orb, and Sonic Orb.

I would like to note, however, that both Negative Energy Burst and Negative Energy Ray allow Will saves for half damage, and even though Mettle only helps against Will partial, I would extend that to Will half, as that seems to be the spirit of the ability. But like I said, in my opinion, there's a pretty big difference between "Fortitude half" and "Fortitude partial".

Here are a few spells from Defenders of the Faith that allow Fortitude half. Granted, there arent' many, but the list just keeps growing...

Blight (granted, it only applies to intelligent plants, but hey), Castigate, Divine Flame, and Divine Zephyr.

Here are a couple spells from Masters of the Wild that allow Fortitude half...

Creeping Cold, and Greater Creeping Cold.

And from the PH, here are some spells that allow Fortitude half...

Circle of Doom, Healing Circle (really only applies to undead and Forsakers), Horrid Wilting, Shatter (only applies to crystaline creatures, but hey, it's there).

And from Magic of Faerun, here are a couple that allow Fortitude half...

Crumble (applies to constructs, but hey), and Stone Shatter (also only applies to stone creatures, but hey).

So, there are some spells that would apply (not many, only 24 in total, and a few of those only apply towards weird creatures), but let me tell you, after a cursory check of these books, and these books alone, there are far more spells that are "Will half" and far fewer that are "Fortitude partial". I have to wonder too, if Mettle was meant to help against "Will half" and "Fortitude partial" instead of "Will partial" and "Fortitude half". If you do it the other way, as opposed to what's in the book, Mettle would actually be very helpful and quite useful without unbalancing the power of the ability. However, I'm still of the opinion that if you not only allow "Fortitude half" and "Will partial", but also include "Fortitude Partial" and "Will half", it would be far too useful and far too partial.

Looking at the ability, IMO, it would be far better if it helped against "Will half" and "Fortitude partial". Hell, there were at least 2 or 3 dozen spells in Magic of Faerun alone that allowed "Will half".

Anyhow, just my 2cp. (er, maybe that should be a bag full of copper)

 

[Archer]

Geez, people. Mettle changes all instances of half or partial to negates for all Fort and/or Will saves. Don't encourage authors and editors to waste space repeating the same thing 3 different ways just so its clear to the last 0.1% of readers. That sort of thing in Mystic Warriors drove me crazy. It should only need to be said once.

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Evasion for Fortitude Saves?

Exactly. But Disintegrate is neither "Will partial" or "Fortitude half".

However, it is "Fort partial", which is simply an application of the same basic idea. Your approach amounts to ignoring the "or similar" clause, which would be counter to the whole point of Mettle.

Also, in the case of Disintegrate, there is no reduced damage. Either you die or you take damage.

Not quite. Either you're wholly disintegrated, or only partially disintegrated. A side effect of being wholly disintegrated is that you die. The description of Mettle states itself that it protects against spells that have a _partial_ effect, not only those that cause precisely half damage. Whether it's a Fort or Will save should not matter, else they wouldn't have put in the "or similar" clause.

As Archer said, there's no point in saying the same thing N times with a different paint colour each time.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Evasion for Fortitude Saves?

As Archer said, there's no point in saying the same thing N times with a different paint colour each time.

What about the rest of my post? I guess you missed that, which is odd, especially since it leaned in your favor. *shrug*

 

[hong]

What about the rest of my post? I guess you missed that, which is odd, especially since it leaned in your favor. *shrug*

What, you expect me to argue with stuff that leans in my favour?

 

[kreynolds]

What, you expect me to argue with stuff that leans in my favour?

LOL Not exactly. I was just curious what you thought about the possibility that the two types might have originally intended to be different. As I showed, there are very few "Fortitude half" spells when taking into consideration the massive amounts of spells available, making the ability pretty limited, but there are far more "Will half" spells out there, which would make the ability worthwhile.

 

[Dinkeldog]

There's a class of those spells that I do not have Mettle effect. Some spells (can't think of any offhand, since it's still early) have a save of Will partial, but the way the spell works is that the spell has an effect. In addition, it will have a separate effect if the target fails a Will save. I'm not going to negate the primary effect because there's some secondary effect that allows a save to halve damage.

Here's an example (personal spell)
Spell creates darts of Shadow, that get thrown at the target, RTA 1d4 + 1 damage for each hit, in addition, a Will Save DC13+Int/Cha bonus+number of darts hit with or affected as if by hold person for 1 round/dart. This would be a Will partial, but negating the primary effect, the damage from the dart, because someone saves against the hold effect is silly.

 

[Zhure]

Totally not important, but Sohei from OA get Mettle, also.

Greg