even encounter?

[duhtroll]

This board is awesome - lots of great reading.

I could use some help from you guys.

In a WotC published adventure recently our 4th level party:

4th dwarven fighter
4th human monk
4th human cleric
4th human wizard
4th halfling rogue

were ambushed by a juvenile black dragon in his home habitat (submerged in water, we didn't make the spot DC, free breath weapon on three of us, fun fun)

I play the wizard. I told our group we were in a fight that we could not win, and convinced them to run. Good thing. Almost everyone was at single-digit hp by the end of the two rounds it took us to flee, and that was with magical help (thankfully it did not pursue).

My question is "is this even a fair fight?"

I'm looking at the stats of the dragon, and it could easily stay out of range and melt us all with its breath weapon while we try to hit it with ranged stuff, or it could even come on land and wipe us out with 5 attacks per round.

We are a low magic group - only a half dozen magic items in the party. I don't see how in a straight fight we could win without losing some PCs, TPK when the dragon has ambush.

Comments?

Thanks all,
-Andrew

 

[dcollins]

Probably not. Juvenile black dragon in MM is listed as CR 6, which would mean it's a "fair" fight for a 6th-level party. Moreover, it's generally agreed that dragon CR's are too low (to skew them into tougher fights), and an honest evaluation should by +1 or +2 higher than that.

Intelligently played (by the dragon), this is pretty overwhelming. A lot of DMs would sort of softball this encounter and thereby make it manageable.

 

[Darkness]

Probably not. Juvenile black dragon in MM is listed as CR 6, which would mean it's a "fair" fight for a 6th-level party. Moreover, it's generally agreed that dragon CR's are too low (to skew them into tougher fights), and an honest evaluation should by +1 or +2 higher than that.

Probably only if you're playing 3.0. They raised some dragon CRs in 3.5.

E.g.:
Juvenile black: 7
Juvenile green: 8

 

[Darkness]

This board is awesome - lots of great reading.

I'm glad you like it. Welcome to the boards.

...

4th dwarven fighter
4th human monk
4th human cleric
4th human wizard
4th halfling rogue

were ambushed by a juvenile black dragon

... My question is "is this even a fair fight?" ...

Well, it's a CR 7 creature. An ambush situation might raise the EL to around 8. Five 4th-level characters are almost as tough as a 5th-level party of 4. If their ability scores are higher than, say, ca. 28- to 30-point point-buy, they probably are as strong as that 5th-level party.

So the EL is ca. 3 above party level, indicating a "very difficult" encounter (even the upper half of this difficulty, in fact).
Very difficult encounters are defined as: "One PC might very well die. ..."


Unless your ability scores are even higher than outlined above, the low magic probably pushes you down to the power of a 4th-level party, meaning the encounter is at the upper end of Very Difficult.

 

[Ranes]

I agree, a juvenile black dragon would outclass your party at its current strength. I ran this module for a group twice the size of yours. There were dead PCs at the end of the encounter. The dragon only just survived. Had the PCs not chosen to run, they might have defeated the dragon; they might have been completely wiped out. It really was that close.

Why are you looking at the beastie's stats?

Welcome to the boards.

 

[Dracomeander]

I remember that encounter. When our group reached it, we were 5th level in 3.0. Party consisted of 4 characters as follows:

Dwarf Fighter
Half-Orc Ranger/Fighter
Human Druid
Elf Rogue (archer concentration).

The dragon managed to ambush us but the rogue and ranger were successful on our spot checks. By initiative, the rogue was simultaneous with the dragon and managed to shoot it when it breathed. Results: damaged dragon, half dead party members, and undamaged rogue (he made his save). Two more ambushes followed as we continued down the canyon. The dwarf and druid were out of it, the ranger was drawing them back away from the dragon's lake, and the rogue was providing covering fire. By this time, dragon was mightily pissed at the rogue and charged him from under water leaping up onto the ledge to melee the rogue. Dragon takes good bite out of rogue, rogue drops bow and strikes with longsword (lucky crit). Result: Rather injured rogue making good bluff, thoroughly confused, confounded and injured dragon. Dragon flees to bedevil the party at a later date. Party thanks the gods for their lucky stars.

Overall, the advantages are all to the dragon, but there is that ephemeral thing called luck that can never be predicted. Effectively, a single rogue drove the dragon away in that encounter even though it was a party of four that met it. (None of the other charaters had effective ranged attacks.) Even with a plethora of luck on the players side it was nearly a total party kill. From the experience, I'd say the circumstances increased the effective CR of the dragon by two or three, and in 3.0 dragons were already listed two pr three CRs below their actual challenge.

 

[dcollins]

Probably only if you're playing 3.0. They raised some dragon CRs in 3.5.

Indeed, I am. (As is the adventure being played by the original poster.) Nice to know 3.5 tried to fix some of them.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Playing

Spoiler

Forge of Fury

, are you?

I ran that adventure, and the dragon never had a chance (it was, of course, young and not juvenile). The characters had learned about the dragon, but it still surprised them. The breath weapon did almost no damage, and while the dragon tried hit and run tactics, it got hurt bad by a couple of good hits and stayed away, while the party looted it and taunted it. It attacked the halfling fighter with an ungodly AC and couldn't touch it. It grappled the wizard and fell in the water to drown him, but the other players arrived rapidly and the rogue delivered a sneak attack before it got a chance to get away.

The dragon fled, and it will probably make a vengeful reapperance shortly, as we find ourselves between

Spoiler

Speaker in Dreams

and

Spoiler

the Standing Stone

AR

 

[Ryltar]

While I am not familiar with the adventure in itself, I just wanted to point out that not every encounter in existence is serving as something to be killed. Some encounters by definition *have* to be too tough for the party to handle, thus making them take a different approach to the encounter or even the whole adventure or concepts within the module. From a storytelling standpoint, it is an absolutely valid plot device.

 

[Ranes]

Absolutely, Ryltar. In this case, a cautious party (ie one that's reached 5th level, is suitably equipped and rested) that reaches this encounter should find it challenging - especially if they lack foreknowledge of it - but winnable. Given that it's the climax of the module, I think it's well balanced.