Evening out the Arcane vs Psionics for damage

[Jack Simth]

Psions are better at a few things, including damage and energy flexibility. All I want is for a blasty Wizard / Sorcerer to not be actively embarrassed by his high-level spells.

Fireball is just fine, IMHO -- the range and availability make up for the lower damage output. But polar ray and cone of cold just aren't keeping their end up. I'd usually rather cast an empowered fireball than a cone of cold.

(Just speaking for me, not the only author here, etc. )

Cheers, -- N

Yep. And generally, the Psion wants an Empowered Energy Ball over Energy Current. The two classes have similar issues in that regard.

But an Empowered Fireball is an excellent example.

The Wizard-10's Empowered Fireball has a save DC of 13+Int Mod + Relevant Feats, and does 10d6*1.5 for a 5th level spell slot at 10th level.
The Psion-10's Empowered Energy Ball has a save DC of 14+Int Mod + Relevant Feats, and does 8d6*1.5 for 10 power points and a Psionic Focus.

Guess which will usually do more damage.

The Wizard-10's regular Fireball has a save DC of 13+Int Mod + Relevant feats and deals 10d6 damage for a 3rd level spell slot.
The Psion-10's Energy Ball has a save DC of 15+Int Mod + Relevant feats and does 10d6 damage for 10 power points (same cost as the empowered energy ball - but does less damage).

The Wizard can throw out more of them.

The Psion can go nova better by using both Quicken Power and Schism, and the Psion's per-round potential doesn't drop until the Psion is basically out of power points (Wizard's does, as does the Sorcerer's). Psion pays for the increased damage above the minimum for the effect, Wizard doesn't. Yes, as a Wizard, you'll usually prefer an Empowered Fireball over a Cone of Cold (at least until about 13th or so where the save DC difference "makes up" for the extra damage from Empowering the Fireball).

Granted, high-level Evocations aren't exactly all that grand - but direct damage isn't optimal in 3.5 anyway. You want more variety in your Evocations? Fine. You're better off researching what amounts to permanently metamagiced versions of lower level spells with higher damage caps.

 

[NilesB]

You want Wizards to be equal to Psions in power?

Eliminate the cream of the Wizard spell list. Move all the cantips up to first level and cut or push up in level any non-damaging effect that outpowers them, move up the levels similarly until for ninth level spells all thats left is Summon Monster XIII, Foresight, Meteor Swarm, and a powered down Time Stop. Oh you might get Charm Monster by then too.

 

[Nifft]

But an Empowered Fireball is an excellent example.

Yep. It's when the Evoker really shines.

The Wizard-10's Empowered Fireball has a save DC of 13+Int Mod + Relevant Feats, and does 10d6*1.5 for a 5th level spell slot at 10th level.
The Psion-10's Empowered Energy Ball has a save DC of 14+Int Mod + Relevant Feats, and does 8d6*1.5 for 10 power points and a Psionic Focus.

Psion does (8d6+8)*1.5 in most cases, with a flexible energy type.

Wizard: 10d6 x1.5 = 35 x1.5 = 52.5
Psion: 8d6+8 x1.5 = 36 x1.5 = 54

Not much of a difference, and it shows why Psions get the extra damage per die -- they actually need it to keep up!

But the flexibility in damage type is very, very useful. IMHO Evokers should be able to keep up with Psions on raw damage, while Psions should remain more tactically flexible, since Wizards can do so many amazing things (which are usually better than even a Psion's direct damage)... of course, there are many Psions who also do things better than direct damage.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Drowbane]

YepPsion does (8d6+8)*1.5 in most cases, with a flexible energy type.

Wizard: 10d6 x1.5 = 35 x1.5 = 52.5
Psion: 8d6+8 x1.5 = 36 x1.5 = 54

Not much of a difference, and it shows why Psions get the extra damage per die -- they actually need it to keep up!

But the flexibility in damage type is very, very useful. IMHO Evokers should be able to keep up with Psions on raw damage, while Psions should remain more tactically flexible, since Wizards can do so many amazing things (which are usually better than even a Psion's direct damage)... of course, there are many Psions who also do things better than direct damage.

Cheers, -- N

I suppose it is worth mentioning that with the right feat selection* that Psion could be doing...

10d6 +20 (55) x1.5 = 82...?

And a wilder of similiar level with the same feats (not sure they can pull off the feats at 10th level...)

13d6 +26 (71) x1.5 = 106 (its early, please forgive any math mistakes )





*empower power + metapower: empowered energyball (effectively removes the penalty for using empower on energyball, thus 10d6) + priviledged energy (+2 dmg per die instead of +1 dmg per die on prefered energy type)

Ahh, good times.

 

[Nifft]

I suppose it is worth mentioning that with the right feat selection* that Psion could be doing...

10d6 +20 (55) x1.5 = 82...?

*empower power + metapower: empowered energyball (effectively removes the penalty for using empower on energyball, thus 10d6) + priviledged energy (+2 dmg per die instead of +1 dmg per die on prefered energy type)

Sure, if you allow non-Core feats, and you play a very specialized specialist, you can do more raw damage -- but then you're not just spending feats (Empower + Psi Meditation + Metapower + Privileged Energy + probably you have to take Expanded Knowledge (Energy Ball)), you're also restricting yourself to just one energy type when you do that. The Psion's chief strength when it comes to damage is picking the save (Fort, Reflex) or the energy type (Fire, Cold, Electricity, Sonic).

But if we're allowing non-Core, I'll bet someone can come up with better non-Core stuff for a Wizard to take.

So let's just not go there.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Drowbane]

bring it, Penguin!

Sure, if you allow non-Core feats, and you play a very specialized specialist, you can do more raw damage -- but then you're not just spending feats (Empower + Psi Meditation + Metapower + Privileged Energy + probably you have to take Expanded Knowledge (Energy Ball)), you're also restricting yourself to just one energy type when you do that. The Psion's chief strength when it comes to damage is picking the save (Fort, Reflex) or the energy type (Fire, Cold, Electricity, Sonic).

But if we're allowing non-Core, I'll bet someone can come up with better non-Core stuff for a Wizard to take.

So let's just not go there.

Cheers, -- N

Too late!

My proposed psion would be a Kineticist for the simple reason of conserving on feats. Priviledged Energy has a prereq of knowing Energy Missile, and also knowing Energy Cone and Energy Ball couldn't hurt.

This kiniticist would blow your typical wizard out of the water when using his prefered element... and be just slightly better when forced to use another element. The fact he can still choose to use his non-preferred elements alone... is just fricking huge.

Its not as if the Psion is losing something for choosing the feats I mentioned. If that player wanted to be an item crafter, for example, he would've chosen an Artificer

Sadly, the Wilder build can't pull off those feats at level 10 (6th: expanded knowledge: energy missile, 9th: priviledged energy... 12th: Metapower...)

And we're discussing relative balance between a Core and Non-Core class. So yeah, lets go there. Show me what a non-core Wizard can dish out...

 

[Nifft]

Fine.

Core Evoker -- I choose you, level eleven!
Wiz Bonus Feats: [Scribe Scroll, Empower, Quicken]
Regular Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Ray), Craft Rod

Spell load-out by level:
4/ Empowered Scorching Ray x5
6/ Quickened Scorching Ray x3

Three rounds per day, the Wizard can "nova" for 30d6 fire damage to a single target (18d6 via Empowered Scorching Ray + 12d6 via Quickened Scorching Ray). If we allow him to have equipment, he can do the same thing with Fireballs via a Lesser Metamagic Rod (Quicken), which he can make himself. His 5th level slots become Empowered Fireballs, and he can Quicken Fireball 3/day with his Rod. This becomes 25d6 in a burst, three rounds in a row... and he can use this tactic in combination with the previous one, since this tactic only utilizes 3rd and 5th level spell slots.

Aaaaand... if he's rich enough to buy or craft regular (not Lesser) Metamagic Rods, he could Quicken an Empowered Fireball and throw a regular Empowered Fireball in the same round, for 30d6 fire damage in a burst. If he's doing that, let's throw in (Greater) Spell Focus (Evocation) instead of Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot.

- - -

Now, for non-Core:

Icy Evoker -- Level eleven, why not? -- uses stuff from PHB-II, Complete Arcane and Frostburn
Wiz Bonus Feats: [Scribe Scroll, Empower, Energy Admixture]
Regular Feats: Snowcasting, Energy Sub (Cold), Frozen Magic, Cold Spell Specialization, Arcane Thesis (Fireball)

Our 4th level slots are now full of Empowered Cold Fireballs, and our 6th level slots are full of Admixtured Cold Fireballs. 5th level slots? Cone of Cold. We definitely own a Lesser Rod of Metamagic (Quicken).

(Note that a munchkin literal reading of Arcane Thesis would allow me to fill my 2nd level slots with Cold Fireballs, but that's just sick.)

Now, in cold weather, we get +1 or +2 damage per die with spells that have the [Cold] descriptor, thanks to Cold Spell Specialization; we also get +1 or +2 caster level depending on the temperature.

Let's assume it's hot out and we wasted half our feats. That's still okay. We're going to be able to throw an Admixtured Cold Fireball for 10d6 Fire + 10d6 Cold, and a Cold Fireball (Quickened via Rod). 30d6 damage. In a cold environment, we'd add +30 or +60 damage to that, depending how cold it was.

Alternately, we could take Arcane Thesis (Scorching Ray), Empower, Quicken and Admixture. Empower + Admixture are only +4 levels (total), and Quicken is only +3, so I could fill my 5th level slots with Quickened Scorching Rays, and my 6th level slots with Empowered Admixtured Scorching Rays, for 48d6 damage (18d6 empowered + 18d6 admixture empowered + 12d6 quickened) to a single target. On a cold day, add +48 or +96 damage.

Or, we could buy a regular Metamagic Rod (Quicken) and throw two Empowered Admixtured Scorching Rays in one round. That would deal 72d6 damage to a single target. On a cold day, blah blah blah.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Drowbane]

I just got off work, and am about to crash, and my brain is a bit fuzzy...

Did you just say "Empower 2 1 + Admixture 4 3 = +4?"

Arcane Thesis works like that? If so, Holy crap... I guess that would mean that your feat selection is more borken than mine.

Either way, the wizard really shines with Metamagic Feats. The psion is stuck with only using one at a time.

I'll take a closer look at your post after I've woken up

 

[Nifft]

I just got off work, and am about to crash... so my brain is a bit fuzzy... but are you trying to imply that Arcane Thesis takes off 1 from multiple metafeats?

Yep. It says "when you apply a metamagic feat". Not that you can only apply one! If the DM allows multiple metamagic feats, he uses the sum of their application, not the maximum, right? This is just an extension of that chaining rule. Each time you apply a metamagic feat to that spell, use this feat.

The metamagics that become free (level +0) are: Still, Silent, Corrupted (BoVD), Scorching (Sandstorm), Piercing (Frostburn)... they're pretty good.

Then, throw on an effect from one Rod of Metamagic per spell for extra bonus pain.

Either way, you've made your point. The wizard really shines with Metamagic Feats. The psion is stuck with only using one at a time.

This is why malice-filled munchkins like myself consider Psionics "depressingly balanced".

Cheers, -- N

 

[Drowbane]

I think FranktheDM's head just exploded...

Yep. It says "when you apply a metamagic feat". Not that you can only apply one! If the DM allows multiple metamagic feats, he uses the sum of their application, not the maximum, right? This is just an extension of that chaining rule. Each time you apply a metamagic feat to that spell, use this feat.

So... (ok, so what if there is no way you could manage all these feats )

Arcane Thesis: fireball / energy sub: cold +0 -1 / lord of the uttercold +0 -1 / sanctum spell +0 -1 / sudden empower +0 -1 / sudden maximize +0 -1 / Sudden quicken +0 -1 sudden extend +0 -1 / sudden silent +0 -1 / sudden widen +0 -1 / anyorall of the +1 +0 metafeats (transdimensional, etc) / explosive spell+2 +1 / repeat spell +3 +2 / admixture +4 +3 / twin spell +4 +3... = 3rd level spell slot?