D&D 5E Everyone has Darkvision - too generous?

[CapnZapp]

It's still for the DM to decide if the group can scout around unnoticed or not. Plenty of monsters also can see in the dark.

Not bringing a light is not a guarantee you won't be discovered, that's true.

But bringing a light is a near-guarantee you will be discovered. That's the thing.

 

[GreenTengu]

If you did have "Low Light Vision"... what races would even get it?

Dwarfs and Gnomes are primarily subterranean, they have Dark Vision. Orcs, Kobolds and at least half the Goblin tribes are as well as most Bugbears, so you want them to have Dark Vision. Drow are also subterranean.

So you have this special rule exclusively to apply to Elves?
I guess you could give it to Hobgoblins if you wanted, but chances are they would still be given Dark Vision since not much thought is ever put into them.
Maybe Ogres and Trolls? Those both seem to fall on the "maybe" side because they are both dungeon-inhabiting creatures that aren't likely to be civilized and organized enough to set up their own lighting systems. So they'd probably get Dark Vision too.
Rakasha (or Rakasta/Catfolk) are something else that could have it?
The Gith would be a big "maybe" since there isn't enough known about the plane they live on...

Seriously, it really seems like you would be creating this rule for this special sort of limited Dark Vision that would only ever apply to Elves. Why should Elves get special exclusive rules for their vision?

 

[TrippyHippy]

Why should Elves get special exclusive rules for their vision?

Well, most of the Races you highlight aren't playable Races, so how much it is an issue is deniable. With regards to Elves, with the exception of Drow, I can't see why they would have evolved Dark Vision at all.

 

[Mavkatzer]

All "Darkvison" in my campaign has been switched to our own version of "low light vision".
You can see up to 60 feet in dim light as if it were normal; mechanially that means "with no disadvantage". Dim light includes starlight, moonlight, and torchlight.

 

[GreenTengu]

Well, most of the Races you highlight aren't playable Races, so how much it is an issue is deniable. With regards to Elves, with the exception of Drow, I can't see why they would have evolved Dark Vision at all.

Just because there aren't rules for playing something now doesn't mean there won't be in the future. Plus, I think the DM does need to keep track of whether the NPCs under his control can see or not so... it is relevant for those purposes regardless.

But if even by your admission, this rule would only ever apply to Elves... what exactly is the point. Why do you need a special different rule for "They can see in the dark" just for Elves? Because it is more realistic?

Well, fine-- but we have no rules regarding Elves being between 3-7 times older than everyone else in the party and that strikes me as a much more glaring omission than what sort of darkness they can and cannot see well under.

 

[TrippyHippy]

But if even by your admission, this rule would only ever apply to Elves... what exactly is the point. Why do you need a special different rule for "They can see in the dark" just for Elves? Because it is more realistic?

Well, fine-- but we have no rules regarding Elves being between 3-7 times older than everyone else in the party and that strikes me as a much more glaring omission than what sort of darkness they can and cannot see well under.

You don't need rules for everything, and I've always assumed the Elvish 'Trance' has always been something to do with their long life. Besides, you're missing my central point here: There is no reason I can see why Elves would be able to see in the dark. They aren't 'creatures of the night', nor underdark (not including Drow). In Tolkien canon, they have farsight but not dark vision. Beyond that, why not just remove it as an Elvish trait altogether?

 

[CapnZapp]

If you did have "Low Light Vision"... what races would even get it?

Dwarfs and Gnomes are primarily subterranean, they have Dark Vision. Orcs, Kobolds and at least half the Goblin tribes are as well as most Bugbears, so you want them to have Dark Vision. Drow are also subterranean.

So you have this special rule exclusively to apply to Elves?
I guess you could give it to Hobgoblins if you wanted, but chances are they would still be given Dark Vision since not much thought is ever put into them.
Maybe Ogres and Trolls? Those both seem to fall on the "maybe" side because they are both dungeon-inhabiting creatures that aren't likely to be civilized and organized enough to set up their own lighting systems. So they'd probably get Dark Vision too.
Rakasha (or Rakasta/Catfolk) are something else that could have it?
The Gith would be a big "maybe" since there isn't enough known about the plane they live on...

Seriously, it really seems like you would be creating this rule for this special sort of limited Dark Vision that would only ever apply to Elves. Why should Elves get special exclusive rules for their vision?

This thread is for those of us feeling it is problematic to give Elves the same Darkvision subterranean creatures get.

To me, it makes it significantly easier for a group of players to scout around without a light. It creates problems explaining the world, since Elves no longer have any advantages in moonlit forests.

It might seem like a minor issue, but it turns out to be a grating change. And for what? The simplification is extremely minor. I am fully capable of tracking a separate kind of vision for Elves and other traditional forest dwelling creatures.

 

[GreenTengu]

You don't need rules for everything, and I've always assumed the Elvish 'Trance' has always been something to do with their long life. Besides, you're missing my central point here: There is no reason I can see why Elves would be able to see in the dark. They aren't 'creatures of the night', nor underdark (not including Drow). In Tolkien canon, they have farsight but not dark vision. Beyond that, why not just remove it as an Elvish trait altogether?

Well, that I see no issue with. Being universally trained in Perception is already the "they have heightened senses" thing. If the idea is "Elves are creatures of the light and embrace the daylight and fill their homes with soft, bright glimmering magick" then by all means, they shouldn't be able to see in the dark and shouldn't have dark vision.

What I was more trying to get at was that the idea of dark vision is pretty simple. Its basically just "you can see in darkness as though you were carrying a bright light source even if you aren't carrying a bright light source". Its not exact, but its basically that simple. It references a rule you are already going to be using anyway. And I feel in a lot of games the exact distance tends to be ignored since rooms are rarely larger than 60' in areas that are going to be completely dark anyway.

What I don't really see a good reason for is to create a separate set of more complicated rules for when it is dark but not complete dark and have to quantify exactly how dark is too dark and have a special vision mode just for that which is going to apply exclusively to Elves. That seem silly.

But if you aren't creating that separate set of wishy-washy gray area rules that require the DM to calculate the phase of the moon and the general humidity conditions for that particular region due to its proximity to large bodies of water and mountains in order to calculate the weather forecast all to determine if the Elf can see and instead you just want to pull Dark Vision off of non-subterranean elves, it seems fine to me. They still have better vision than anyone else not trained in perception.

 

[CapnZapp]

Well, that I see no issue with. Being universally trained in Perception is already the "they have heightened senses" thing. If the idea is "Elves are creatures of the light and embrace the daylight and fill their homes with soft, bright glimmering magick" then by all means, they shouldn't be able to see in the dark and shouldn't have dark vision.

What I was more trying to get at was that the idea of dark vision is pretty simple. Its basically just "you can see in darkness as though you were carrying a bright light source even if you aren't carrying a bright light source". Its not exact, but its basically that simple. It references a rule you are already going to be using anyway. And I feel in a lot of games the exact distance tends to be ignored since rooms are rarely larger than 60' in areas that are going to be completely dark anyway.

What I don't really see a good reason for is to create a separate set of more complicated rules for when it is dark but not complete dark and have to quantify exactly how dark is too dark and have a special vision mode just for that which is going to apply exclusively to Elves. That seem silly.

But if you aren't creating that separate set of wishy-washy gray area rules that require the DM to calculate the phase of the moon and the general humidity conditions for that particular region due to its proximity to large bodies of water and mountains in order to calculate the weather forecast all to determine if the Elf can see and instead you just want to pull Dark Vision off of non-subterranean elves, it seems fine to me. They still have better vision than anyone else not trained in perception.

Straw man, man.

Nothing complicated with my idea. Treat night as day outdoors. Bam. Done.

 

[Horwath]

I'm OK with current darkvision rules, they are clean and simple.
And -5 perception penalty(disadvantage) is a lot.
If you don't carry light sources then you have troubles at finding traps or spotting ambushes.

As for lowlight vision;

Low light vision;
you see normally in low light conditions and treat any light source as 5× brighter.
you do not have penalties for perception in low light conditions. If you also acquiere darkvision by some means you do not have penalty in total darkness.

you still have limited vision in total darkness, you can pinpoint enemies to a degree but have disadvantage on perception(visual), attack rolls and can move at half speed without risks. Also all attacks vs. you have advantage.

as low light vision i weaker that low light vision some compensation should be given to affected races.

I.E. maybe extra skill proficiency that fits the race or skill expertise in such skill. Elves could start with proficiency and expertise with perception and proficiency in stealth or survival.

Optional feat:
Darkvision
requirements, lowlight vision, proficiency in perception.
benefit; +1 to one ability, darkvision 60ft.