Evil by birth?

[Nebrok]

I am a DM and in one of my plots there was a npc vrock that was 'clensed' by powerful divine magic... simply by chance. This even was somthing that I had planed and it was plot relelevent. This has now brought up and interesting contraverial question, is any creature (outsider or otherwise) BORN truly evil or made that way by upbrining. If an angel can fall, can a demon rise? I have players who want to start new characters who are of races normally allways evil (one even wants to try the vrock idea) and play them as alingments other than evil. Can a demon 'choose' to be better, if not good at least nutral?

One of the strongest arguments refers to Fall-from-Grace, the Soft spoken sucubuss from the PC game "Plancescape: Torment". For those who are unfamiliar to the game she is true-nutral.

OF course this could posibly leave all other automaticly evil races (or conditions such as lichdom, vampirim, and lycathropy/werewolf) open for possible good alinments. Sould it be possible? I would be willing to say yes, but only under VERY limited circumstances and rare ocasions. Only because there will always be those to try to defiy their nature. Naturaly such characters will be plauges by "bad luck" (evil grin) for going against their nature.

I want to know what others think, has this sort of thing been done before, is it maddness, or it there merit to the argumant?

 

[Tonguez]

The power of Narrative Imperative (ie Story) is what drives the DnD universe therefore if it determines that blessed Demons make a good story then it happens, just as good Liches (o heaven forbid Drow) aren't unknown to the multiverse.

The only limitation (and even these are illusions) are the notion that Outsiders are comprised of the very stuff of their alignment ie Demons are formed of the stuff of Hell and Angels the very stuff of Heaven as such if they should deny their true nature they will suffer greatly for it - that creates your plot hook...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

It is possible. In fact, the "Always X" alignment type doesn't actually mean always. It mean, "99.9999999999% of cases" - leaving open the possiblity of 1-offs of other alignments.

Keep in mind, however, that in the case of certain outsiders, they always retain their subtypes: a Demon, regardless of its current alignment, retains the Chaotic and Evil subtypes; its body is made of the stuff of pure Chaos and pure Evil. Nothing it does can ever change that, and thus it is still affected by spells and other abilities that target Evil.

 

[der_kluge]

Unless they changed it in 3rd edition, liches aren't automatically evil. They're just undead.

I would allow for non-evil demons and devils. Sure.

 

[Nebrok]

Re: Evil by Birth?

That's a very good point, Patryn. I had allreay ruled that too, in fact that's one of the way I decided to mess with a reformed vrock. An evil wizard attemted to summon a vrock into servitude and instead got one of my players who IS playing a vrock. I thought it was funney to do... but er... not laughing...... to her face anyways. (lol)

 

[the Lorax]

Playing against type is a time honored tradition.

If you have a game where the concept of a non-evil Vrock as a PC would work, the go ahead, allow it. I could be fun. Just be careful, a whole party of playing-against-type characters would be pretty boring. A player is usually making such a character for its uniqueness, and if everyone is doing the same thing, then its just dull.

Now, for rules justification. According to the 3.5 MM (page 305), under ALIGNMENT:

...Every entry includes a qualifier that indicates how broadly that alignment applies to all monsters of that kind.

Always: The creatures is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary presisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predertimines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions....

Also in the Book of Exalted Deeds which has a Sanctified Creature template (which has some conflicting text in it). Which may or may not be appropriate depending upon how you read it, and how you, as the DM rule it.

 

[Orryn Emrys]

One of the most interesting adventures I've run in the past few years is a PLANESCAPE module called The Deva Spark, which had an interesting take on this particular issue. For most of the adventure, the PCs were hunting a Bebilith that had somehow 'acquired' a deva spark, the core of divinity found within an angelic creature. The details are fuzzy at this point, but the demon essentially became extraordinarily confused, performing tasks of both good and evil as it sought some rationale for the conflict within itself.

The idea that such beings have some sort of pseudo-soul or similar energy source within them that drives the forces that make up their being is pretty wild. If I remember correctly, the Deva in question was dying without it, as well; I think he placed it inside a deserving human host (or so he thought) for safekeeping whilst he pursued an important mission in the lower planes, so that he wouldn't be as easily detected, then the human was killed, landed in the Abyss, and was eaten by the Bebilith. It was pretty creative.

 

[JoeGKushner]

If it fits the campaign mode, go for it.

Most outsiders though, are 'created' at their station and some entities, by their nature, are evil. Skeletons for exmaple. I think they're always Neutral Evil just by their make up and composition of bone and negative energy.

 

[diaglo]

If it fits the campaign mode, go for it.

Most outsiders though, are 'created' at their station and some entities, by their nature, are evil. Skeletons for exmaple. I think they're always Neutral Evil just by their make up and composition of bone and negative energy.

whereas in OD&D(1974) skeletons were neutral.

 

[Hand of Evil]

I think you know my soapbox: Define evil in your game. As a DM it is up to you to say 'this is evil' and let your players know. By doing this repentant or player characters outsiders can show up in your game as non-evil.

Some examples:
Cannibalism - includes life draining, blood drinkers (does not include the eatting of foes killed in honorable combat by the Clans)
Mind-control - includes slavery
Cold-blooded murder - beyond food, hunger, defending one self
Worship of evil gods
Goblins

Now if you had a drow that was no longer evil, he would give up these acts and 'renounce' Lolth, more than likely in an open act of rebellion and asking the good god's (DM's) forgiveness.