Examples of Power Creep?

[FireLance]

Most of my issues are with spells and just for the record whenever I have mentioned CA below I am speaking about Complete Arcane, not Complete Adventurer. In fact most of my issue are with spells and most people who have replied have ignored the spell examples and have not given any counter information or have read the spell wrong (as in the Whirling Blade being a ranged attack and thus would only work up to 30' away when in fact it is a melee attack).

Oh, I do agree that there are poorly-thought out spells. However, I don't think that the majority of them are bad enough to cause problems. In my view, the key questions that should be asked are: who's going to use it, what else they could be doing, and how often can they do it?

Take wraithstrike for example. It's a second level spell for assassins, sorcerers and wizards that is cast as a swift action (like a free action, but you only get one per round) and makes your melee attacks melee touch attacks for one round. Who's going to use it? Pure sorcerers and wizards are unlikely to have much use for it as being in melee is generally not a good idea for them. Fighter-types who can convert large amounts of BAB to damage with Power Attack can get some use out of this spell, but the chance to hit starts falling off rapidly, even for touch attacks, with each successive iterative attack. This is deadliest in the hands of rogues (and assassins), who can use it to make multiple touch sneak attacks when flanking. However, a rogue who has taken enough sorcerer or wizard levels to cast this spell would have sacrificed at least 1 point of BAB and 2d6 of sneak attack damage. Meaning, he's made himself less effective for the rest of the time in order to pull this off a few times a day. Some people don't mind this, but others do. Of course, there's always Use Magic Device, but if he's manipulating a scroll or wand, he'll probably need Quick Draw to ready his weapons after that, and Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting to get the most attacks. Using such a combination, a high-level rogue (19th level) can strike six times per round for 60d6 worth of sneak attack damage plus weapon damage. Impressive, until you consider that a core rogue with those feats, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, greater invisibility and several flasks of acid can get seven ranged touch attacks for 77d6+7 acid damage, and can do it again in the next round.

Of course, once you add extra damage from weapon abilities (holy, flaming, shock, bane), the rogue with the wraithstrike wand will probably get the edge on damage again. So, it's probably a good option. But I don't think it's an overwhelmingly good one.

Your reply that a straight fighter or sorceror is more powerful than a mulitclassing wizard/rogue is not an apple to apple comparison. Players play straight classes and others play multiclassed characters. They exist. People play them. My point is that whatever the core books can do, the splatbooks can almost always do it better. Particularly in spellcasting.

I won't argue that feats like Practised Spellcaster make multiclass spellcasters more powerful. So, if you're looking at power creep in terms of specific classes or class combinations, I suppose it exists. However, if these changes simply make an underpowered option more in line with other characters of the same level, I don't think power creep will have occured with respect to the game as a whole.

 

[Endur]

I would have showed the player the section in the DMG where it said PRCs are a DM option and template are not for PCs.

It's all here in the book. Nothing says I can't do it." He was right. There was nothing in the book that disallowed it. I did not allow it (which caused the loss of a player), but I don't think WotC is figuring these situations in when they develope a product.

 

[Storyteller01]

I would have showed the player the section in the DMG where it said PRCs are a DM option and template are not for PCs.

He'd have found something else, somewhere else...

I'd say more on that, but I don't want to hi-jack the thread.

Point is, the situation was 'legal', especially since the outgrowth of new material is likely to produce 'the DMG is outdated' views (or has on my end anyway).

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

True, but that doen't stop people from trying. I had someone who played 3.5 almost exclusively come into my campaign later than the others. The rule was that you could start a character at a level one less than the group average.

His response (using the Savage Species. It's not 3.0, but it hasn't been replaced with a 3.5 version yet...): "I'll take one level as a yaunti brood guard, go through [some ritual] to become an anthromorphic cat, then I'll go through [ritual] to become a Beast of Legend. I'll take the psionic template and [3 other templates I can't remember]. It's all here in the book. Nothing says I can't do it." He was right. There was nothing in the book that disallowed it. I did not allow it (which caused the loss of a player), but I don't think WotC is figuring these situations in when they develope a product.

Agreed, it's up to the DM to maintain their campaign, but WotC isn't helping matters. Even if they're not deliberately creating the power creep, their not doing much to stop it either...

You didn't allow the character, so we can't be sure, but that sounds like anything but power creep. The rituals all carried horrendous costs IIRC, the cat is far from an ideal anthro animal, and adding five templates means essentially a minimum of +5 LA. Unless you were playing Epic, he would have ended up with a broken character - broken as in nonfunctional!

Also, something (aside from the munchkin code of dishonor, I mean ) does say he can't do it. PrCs are listed as optional, there's a little thing called Rule 0 right there in the DMG, and, all else aside, he would have lost Brood Guard when he ceased to be a yuan-ti.

Would you have WANTED to play with this cat?

Finally, SS was 3.0 material. IF that combo were strong, which it isn't, it wouldn't evidence power creep. If anything, it would evidence power loss from 3.0 to 3.5

WotC may not be helping, but I've yet to see how they're hurting.

 

[Markn]

Navar

Stating that no class in the PHB can cast Ice Knife and therefore is not comparable IMO is incrorrect. That further enhances my position. The fact that a class outside the PHB has access to something else outside the PHB that a class inside the PHB doesn't get proves my point (at least in my mind )

How about a constructive exercise...Lets look at wizards spells. Go throught the PHB and mark say the top 5 spells for each of the first 5 levels. Now do the same using whatever splatebooks you want. Compare the top spells at each level. Look at damage, duration, versatility (is the spell effective against low level creatures, high level creatures, multiple creatures, fire creatures, ice creatures, etc), is there a saving throw allowed, SR? If you see spells as I do you should see that the top 5 from each level in the PHB will be weaker than the top 5 in the splatbooks. In fact, if you make a list and still do not agree with me then at least we have a starting point that we can each examine and say ' This is why I view the spell more powerful." At least we are not throwing examples at each other that are night and day to each other.

Looking forward to your response.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

If I weren't on hold on a custserv line trying to repair a hacked website that hasn't been updated in over a year, I'd have to actually work, rather than typing here one-handed.

However, I'll get to the spell lists when I can.

I'm willing to admit I can't rule out spell power creep, because I haven't run a campaign with D&D spellcasting in quite a while. I'm very curious what comes up.

 

[Markn]

Other replies...

Firelance

I am going to have to check out pg 86 of complete arcane then...If that is correct that is good to know. Thanks. If it is correct (and it sounds like it is) then our house rule was the correct one.

In regards to the Practiced Spellcaster feat, I don' t really view that as power creep per se but it is an example of how feats can significantly change the game as in this case making certain mulitclassed characters more effective.

Getting back to my issue with spells for the moment, I believe that any caster that has a wide range of spells that they can cast (like the warmage) and can cast on the fly is inherently more powerful than a caster that has to memorize. Like I said before a warmage almost always has an answer for whatever enemy he is fighting. That same answer is something he can cast over and over until it is dead. Wizards tend to have to use suboptimal choices as they may only have 1 or 2 spells for this direct situation. Sorceror's tend to not have as good a spell selection as the Warmage (I think anyways as there aren't many sorcerors in our group) and thus that selection limits them in ways the warmage does not have. Include the fact that the warmage gets sudden feats and can choose some evocation spells and can cast in armor and to me it is more powerful. I have dealt with many campaigns with wizards and they have never been much of an issue. The current campaign has a warmage and he is very very potent.

 

[Markn]

For the record...

Just for the record, feats, PrC and skills are fairly balanced. Power creep is very minimal and within an acceptable limit to me. Some magic items are wacky but they are easy to say no to. Spells is where I have most of my concerns (as well as the Warmage class). Any player worth his salt can make a potent warmage due to his abilities. Hell, he even gets mass fire shield before other classes do....Did I mention he has more HP too? When I first looked at the class I didn't think it was as powerful as what it was. I allowed it and I regret it. Unless you have seen it in action it is very misleading.

PS - Combinations of feats, PrC, etc from the splatbooks CAN be uberpowerful IMO.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Take wraithstrike for example. *snip* However, a rogue who has taken enough sorcerer or wizard levels to cast this spell would have sacrificed at least 1 point of BAB and 2d6 of sneak attack damage. Meaning, he's made himself less effective for the rest of the time in order to pull this off a few times a day.

No, you only need to take 1 level of wiz and precocious apprentice (wraithstrike) feat from complete arcane. Plain old core rules pearls of power are all you need to cast this spell as many times as you want.
No effectiveness lost. Effectiveness shoots through the roof actually.

 

[MerricB]

Getting back to my issue with spells for the moment, I believe that any caster that has a wide range of spells that they can cast (like the warmage) and can cast on the fly is inherently more powerful than a caster that has to memorize.

I think you underestimate the sorcerer and overestimate the warmage.

The warmage, in fact, has a very limited range of spells. It is all "attack, attack, attack". With the proper selection of metamagic feats, the sorcerer has a very similar range to the warmage.

Then too, the sorcerer can deal with threats that can't be blown up. Sure, the warmage does more actual damage, but the sorcerer has other options. A haste spell cast on the party's fighters is probably more effective than a single fireball, and the opportunity of casting fly, detect magic, dispel magic and other utility spells quickly make the sorcerer more valuable in any campaign which is not entirely combat.

Cheers!