Examples of Power Creep?

[ivocaliban]

I think there are some examples of power creep but on the whole it's nothing that the DM can't easily control, and it's not particularly broken.

Precisely. I think that's the most valid point and the most often forgotten. Power creep exists in any system that continues to grow (and any system that stops growing tends to die), but people are always going to differ over what goes too far and what doesn't go far enough. The DM is there to allow or ban anything he feels gets in the way of the campaign. So far I haven't seen any evidence of power creep from WotC that isn't fairly narrow in scope and certainly nothing that wrecks the foundation of the system.

 

[DungeonMaster]

So...you need 25,000gp? And what happens when you lose the ring?
And must you bring this into every single thread?

There are wealth per character level guidelines in the DMG. There are no 3.5 rules for what happens when you lose the prerequisites to a prestige class, I'm pretty sure those are 3rd edition rules only. It's irrelevant though, you'de just pull another out. You might as well ask the same questions to a wizard once his spellbooks are destroyed. Except it's easier to just put on another ring.
I don't keep bringing this up in every single thread. Specifically this is the second thread I've talked about this.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

There are no 3.5 rules for what happens when you lose the prerequisites to a prestige class, I'm pretty sure those are 3rd edition rules only.

Complete Warrior, pg. 16

Personally, I'd rather not trust ten of my spellcasting levels to my ring of evasion, but that's just me.

It's irrelevant though, you'de just pull another out. You might as well ask the same questions to a wizard once his spellbooks are destroyed. Except it's easier to just put on another ring.

It's easier to replace an item worth 25,000 gp than to replace a spellbook?

There are wealth per character level guidelines in the DMG.

Yep. And they don't allow for 25,000 gp items to be pulled out like they're nothing until extremely high levels, at which point a core druid is so much better than a Fochlucan Lyrist it's not even an issue.

Especially since the FL is apparently is constantly carrying around a fully charged wand of polymorph to counteract losing his best class feature.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Neither of these are more powerful than Straight Dwarf Fighter or even worse Dwarf Fighter/Barbarian. So as I said before if it is not more powerful than an existing build it isn't powercreep.

I don't know how you're getting to that conclusion.
Here's the prestige class
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040305a
The things that are equal are the bab, the saves and the DR, except the hammer gets his DR sooner.
The defender gets a stance he can't move in 5/day.
The hammer gets 4 power strikes per day (daze the opponent) and the ability to add his will save modifier to his AC 1/day, imbue goblin/drow/giant/axiomatic bane types to his weapon 1/day.
The defender has a passive AC bonus up to +4 and uncanny dodge.
The hammer gets a passive 1.5x strength bonus to damage 1 handed, 2x if double handed, a bonus to damage equal to the target's armor value, the ability to throw warhammers 30 ft, imbues returning on any warhammer all the time, the warhammers can hit every creature in a 60 ft line, and he can knock prone everything within a 60ft radius as a standard action.

Sorceror is more powerful. Period.

Ok, sure, if you say so, but some discussing is in order typically, how about comparing him to a psion?

I mean it's not restricted to just these examples. Count how many spells in the core 3.5 books are "swift action" spells and then pick up complete adventurer and count.
It's not even funny how obvious these things are.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

There will always be above average feats and above average PrCs. If the average power level does not go noticeably down in the supplements then there will inevitably exist more potent combos as you add more options.

In other words, if you do not have power attenuation, somebody will always say there is power creep.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Complete Warrior, pg. 16
Personally, I'd rather not trust ten of my spellcasting levels to my ring of evasion, but that's just me.

Sure, I'll trust you, I don't own the book (and never will).
That's a shame for your spellcasting career. You'de never make a wizard.

It's easier to replace an item worth 25,000 gp than to replace a spellbook?

Why are you confused? Ever look at the price of scrolls? Ever have to pen a spellbook from scratch? You'll learn, fast.

Yep. And they don't allow for 25,000 gp items to be pulled out like they're nothing until extremely high levels, at which point a core druid is so much better than a Fochlucan Lyrist it's not even an issue.

You're misguided. The core rules allow for any item under 40k to be found even in a large city, not even a metropolis. You have ample cash by 9th level to acquire the ring.
The Lyrisist will kill any druid by weight of ability.

Especially since the FL is apparently is constantly carrying around a fully charged wand of polymorph to counteract losing his best class feature.

You misjudge wildshape. It's good but it's not that good. Particularly not as good as dual casting progression and full base attack bonus and more and better skills.

 

[DungeonMaster]

The example Henry cited is often one of my favorite examples for pointing what exactly was wrong with some things in 3.0. The save DC's could go through the friggen roof, making straight spellcasters even more powerful than their nonspellcasting counterparts.

Then you don't understand why 3.5 is caster-level happy. At the high levels saves are less relevant than caster level. In 3.5 by core rules you can easily make your caster level insanely high and non-core rules make it even more insanely high.
Try this: 17 cleric/ 3 heirophant spell power + orange ioun stone + prayer bead of karma + ankh of ascension + death knell's spell + create magic tatoo + divine spell power feat.
That's a caster level of 20+3+1+1+4+4+1+4= 39
With a 5th level spell resistance spell you can easily make your SR on the order of, um, 52.
Then you can energy substitute (say sonic energy?) something like a sudden maximized empowered shivering touch (frostburn) spell for 24 dexterity damage and not worry about any creature's SR ever getting in the way because your caster level's so high.
You could get really broken using the horribly updated holy cow (word) too.

Complete Divine could be power creep for the already impressive Druid and Cleric, but I'm not sure about that yet.

Try divine metamagic persistant spell.
Use divine metamagic (heighten) at level 1 to heighten your DC to a level 9 spell. (+8 DC)
Or try quill blast on a largish creature.
Or for fun a 1wiz/3druid/10arcane heirophant/mystic theurge with practiced spellcaster feat. Easily 9th level arcane and druid spellcasting with wildshape to boot.

Anyhow. This is all old hat, every edition of D&D has power-creep, I don't know how you could rationally argue against it in 3.5 which has even more variables than any previous edition. More variables, more options = more power. Period.

 

[Testament]

Ring of Evasion will not get you into Fochlucan Lyrist, as you don't have the ability. You've been granted the ability, not the same thing. Just like having Gauntlets of Ogre Power doesn't allow the strength 12 wizard to take Power Attack. And the swift spells, while nice on paper, suck. They burn spell slots, and last for one round. Whoopwoopwoopwoopwoop.

And the fact that you don't recognise Wild Shape as the best feature of the Druid shows just how UNqualified you are to be speaking on this matter. Full base attack becomes infinitely better when you change into a Dire Bear, and keep your ability to sling spells. You can't sling spells while Polymorphed, even with natural spell, read the feat again. It specifically calls out "while wild shaped".

ANYWAY, with the Troll dealt with...

I've seen plenty of badly designed things (Hulking Hurler, Divine Metamagic, Racial Sub Levels), but on the whole, I'm not seeing the all-over raising of the power curve that Creep is supposed to bring.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Ring of Evasion will not get you into Fochlucan Lyrist, as you don't have the ability. You've been granted the ability, not the same thing.

Curious, how and where did you get this rule from?

And the swift spells, while nice on paper, suck. They burn spell slots, and last for one round. Whoopwoopwoopwoopwoop.

Whoop when that swift action wraithstrike makes all my attacks into touch attacks and the next action is a power-attack at a 6/1 ratio.

And the fact that you don't recognise Wild Shape as the best feature of the Druid shows just how UNqualified you are to be speaking on this matter.

We wouldn't be having this discussion if this was in any way true for one of us, you'de just agree on the power creep and we'de be done.

Full base attack becomes infinitely better when you change into a Dire Bear, and keep your ability to sling spells. You can't sling spells while Polymorphed, even with natural spell, read the feat again. It specifically calls out "while wild shaped".

Who cares? A dire bear isn't anywhere near as good as polymorphed hydra with sudden quicken spells, like say wraithstrike for instance.
Non-core is in a different league entirely.

Ironic how me pointing out obvious deficiencies in the non-core supplements gets me slapped with a "troll" label. Willful ignorance is a much worse state of affairs.

 

[Seeker95]

Power creep is not an "edition phenomenon".
It is the nature of non-core material.

(diaglo, Were there any OD&D supplements?)
Basic supplements gradually pushed the power envelope.
(Expert and Immortals were core power envelope pushes!)
1e supplements gradually pushed the power envelope.
2e supplements gradually pushed the power envelope.
3e supplements gradually pushed the power envelope.

Core creates the foundation by which power is judged.
Non-core builds on that foundation. Generally through power rather than flavor.