Examples of Power Creep?

[Testament]

Whoop when that swift action wraithstrike makes all my attacks into touch attacks and the next action is a power-attack at a 6/1 ratio.

Wow. And you've pulled the feats to be able to get your power attack to this tier from WHERE exactly? While still being able to cast Wraithstrike?

 

[DungeonMaster]

I agree with Seeker95 100%. (Rare that too...)

It doesn't mean the game can't be played, even enjoyed. It's just "there" and if your DM is a robot or inexperienced then he can be in over his head with very few supplements.

I am however an optimist and think that one day the trend will be bucked and the rules on bonuses and multipliers will be rigid enough to break that cycle. Perhaps in 4th edition.

 

[Psion]

I see no equivalent phenomenon to power creep as it existed in 2e. Certainly, there are some books that seem out of like (BoED comes to mind), and some individual classes and feats that were universally better than core material, but it lacked the same trend of continual bar-raising that seemed to go on in 2e.

 

[Arkhandus]

There are plenty of overpowered feats and prestige classes in books like the Draconomicon, Complete Warrior, Complete Arcane, Races of Stone, and so on. Heck, even the 3.5 Player's Handbook has such overpowered bits as Power Attack (woe to those who once liked fighting with two weapons, or swashbuckling with a rapier, or daggerfighting, or anything else short of a greatsword) and some of the new spells in the 3.5 PHB (their names escape me at the moment).

 

[FireLance]

Funny, I keep seeing the word "overpowered" and I wonder, overpowered compared to what?

Overpowered compared to what characters can do in previous editions? Well, so what? You're not mixing editions in your game, are you?

Overpowered compared to each other? How so? Every type of chararacter can do incredible things.

Overpowered compared to sub-optimal character builds? Well, duh. Build a better character next time.

Overpowered compared to what the Dungeon Master thinks characters should be able to do? Too bad for him. He'd better get his head out of the past, adapt to the power level of the new edition and come up with better challenges for the players.

So, those who use "overpowered": overpowered compared to what?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Wow. And you've pulled the feats to be able to get your power attack to this tier from WHERE exactly? While still being able to cast Wraithstrike?

Wraithstrike is a swift action and only 2nd level.
Momentum swing is a combat brute tactical feat that gives 1:3 ratio while the frenzied berserker's supreme power attack is 1:4 so a 1:6 ratio easy.
You can go much higher if you want to include more sources. I'm not looking very hard either. Just using a little google.

 

[Testament]

Wraithstrike is a swift action and only 2nd level.
Momentum swing is a combat brute tactical feat that gives 1:3 ratio while the frenzied berserker's supreme power attack is 1:4 so a 1:6 ratio easy.
You can go much higher if you want to include more sources. I'm not looking very hard either. Just using a little google.

I'm aware of all this. I just want to see the build that gets you to this disgustingness.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Funny, I keep seeing the word "overpowered" and I wonder, overpowered compared to what?

Overpowered must refer to the base, the core rules without optional material at all.

If I can trip with a spiked chain an improved trip at +4 and enlarge person at +8 then that's a basis to work from. All other things equal that means I'm wining 80% of the time and they're not falling prone 20% (that's the opposed roll math).
If I add Jotunbrund at another +4 then that's a total +12 now. So that's really starting to be a very hefty effect. All other things equal that's a 91% versus a 9%.
If I add a feat called sidestep that allows me to trip then get completely out of the way denying any form of counterattack then we have a problem.

The DM can "adapt" - he can throw really big things, incorporeal, four legged or even all the those combined. But the combination of PC abilities has forced his hand. Many standard MM encounters just aren't up to par with the PC. That's where you begin to draw the line of overpowered. Your characters just stomp all over plain Monster Manual creatures with impunity.

You can of course bring in bigger nastier monsters, similarly overpowered NPCs that use the same tactics but really, in the end, you're just watching the numbers and number of abilities scale.
Some people love to do exactly that, watch the numbers scale. I don't but to each his own.

 

[Navar]

I don't see any evidence of 3.5 power creep, except perhaps in monsters.

My definition of power creep is:

a) New material regularly exceeds the upper limits set by older material, and each subsequent release raises the bar further.

OR

b) New material is significantly more powerful on average than older material, and each subsequent release increases the average to remain ahead of the curve.

3.5 doesn't meet either criteria in any meaningful way. It has a few areas of creep in b), but mostly in the sense of flattening the power curve out rather than bending it further.

CORE CLASSES

a) None of the core classes in the Complete books are as good as the best in the PHB, so they aren't raising the bar. Eberron's artificer is strong, but not as good as a druid or cleric. Nor are the Complete Adventurer classes better than (or even equal to) those in, say, Complete Divine. No creep.

b) Since there's a higher percentage of primary spellcasters in the Completes, their average is higher than the PHB's, but their average for any of the three primary archetypes (warrior, spellcaster, expert) is lower. Similarly, Eberron has a higher 'average' since its one base class is near the top. But, it hasn't followed up with additional above-average base classes. No creep.

PRESTIGE CLASSES

a) The best PrC in the DMG is probably the Archmage, although you could make a case for some of the others. The Hulking Hurler tops that, as does the Ur Priest. Evidence of DMG-Warrior-Divine bar raising. However, the bar lowered to DMG or sub-DMG levels with Arcane and Adventurer. Possible creep, but quickly corrected.

b) The average PrCs in the supplements are dragged down considerably by classes that would be sub-par in the first 10 character levels, still more when you actually have to qualify for them. Overall, the supplemental PrCs have a lower average. The warrior types are much better but still sub-par by the time they become available. No creep.

FEATS

a) The most powerful feat in the PHB is Natural Spell; its better than most very strong PrCs' capstone abilities. Combat Reflexes and Power Attack are probably 3. and 2., respectively. Nothing in the supplements comes close to natural spell, nor is their a visible trend toward feats stronger than CR or PA. No creep.

b) The average feat is probably a bit better, if only because the sub-par +2/+2 feats are largely absent. Creep, but slight and probably more balancing than not.

RACES

a) Dwarves are the most powerful PHB race; one could argue till the sun goes down (unless it is down in your area) what the best MM one is. Warforged and Goliaths are about the only really good races intended for PC use, and I don't see either as equal or better than dwarves. Because of monster creep, there may be slight monstrous race improvements, but considering the ruthless LAs, probably not. No meaningful creep.

b) The average in races is definitely better. WotC doesn't print substandard races like half-orc anymore; all the Eberron, XPH and Complete races are at or above the average. Definite creep here, but on a small scale.

MONSTER CREEP

a) Now we're talking. There are some absolutely brutal monsters out there who seem way undercosted for their CR. MM3 is definitely more powerful than MM1, with the exception of dragons who were already outrageous for their CRs. Definite creep, but not enough evidence to see if it will get worse.

b) Even worse than a) - the average of MM3 is closer to the upper tier of MM1. Massive creep, but no pattern yet.

This is pretty much exactly as I see it. You are 100% correct (as far as I am concerned.) I see a lot of pleople voteing yes, but NO EXAMPLES, come on people if you vote yes, please cite an example.

Edit: oh and monster creep is a good thing (as people learn how to play the game making the monsters stronger is GREAT and keep the game challanging.)

 

[Darkness]

By the way, guys, let's make sure this thread stays friendly. Thanks.