Examples of Power Creep?

[DungeonMaster]

I'm aware of all this. I just want to see the build that gets you to this disgustingness.

Sure, but I'm not an optimization god or anything, I'm quite sure you can do better:
Barbarian2/Fighter 4/Frenzied Berserk 10/wiz or whatever X
Feats:
1st- Power Attack, Intimidating Rage
3rd- Destructive Rage, Cleave
4th- Improved Sunder
6th- Extra Rage, Combat Brute

You can probably eek out with only 1 wizard level using precocious apprentice (wraithstrike) and a handful of pearls of power and caster level increasing items.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I disagree. Players generally leave behind the lame PrCs and go for powerful ones like the Hulking Hurler, if the DM isn't banning things from the book left and right. (This is what happens when you print too many PrCs... you get a load of crud.) IMO it's "corrected" by the DM banning the broken PrCs.

IMO adding even a few overpowered things (eg Sudden Metamagic, Divine Metamagic, and a messload of broken PrCs) counts as power creep.

I've seen several PC frenzied berserkers - the tension and danger of the concept seem to appeal to players - but never an actual hulking hurler. The essentially prerequisite class of war hulk with its absolute requirement that the PC check out of all non-combat encounters turns them off. I'm actually a little surprised no one's wanted an Ur Priest; maybe the danger of ticking off the gods scares players off. I've seen a druid who went for maximum wildshaping (warshaper/nature's warrior/master of many forms) and he dwarfed the FBs in power, but even he was weaker than the core druids, clerics and wizards at higher levels.

Since those are probably the strongest PrCs around (where is the proverbial "messload?"), it doesn't seem like much of a problem. I've seen far more PCs go into flavorful substandard PrCs, or at least dip them for a characterful ability, than ever adopted the strongest ones. I've seen even more stay in their core classes; they usually end up the best of the lot.

Divine Metamagic is probably broken, particularly before it was clarified. I still hold that the Suddens not only aren't broken, they're just plain awful. I've never seen them be anything other than festering tumors of uselessness on character sheets. Most of them never get used at all, or get wasted on chump encounters. Pathetic wastes of spellcasters' limited feats.

Also, once again, you haven't mentioned a single thing that's NEW.

How can it be power CREEP if the strongest material was printed over a year ago?

How can power creep be a FACT of RPG sales if it hasn't happened since then?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Actually that's not entirely true MoogleEmpMog. Complete Divine isn't 1st generation 3.5, it came out well after complete warrior.
Also I'm curious what you think about the races of the wild arcane hierophant. Stacks with the Mystic theurge and allows 9th/9th spells with full wildshape, full familiar, full animal companion and cast in any armor allowed to druids (like um, dragon hide full plate).
I can't see a single way this PrC isn't better than the Urge. At all.

Needless to say we are again, on a different wavelength to determine what's balanced.

 

[FireLance]

The fallacy in your argument is that you declare ALL core options to be equal in power and utility and that anything that rises above them is inherently power creep.

A class, feat or race that is better than a substandard core option, or focuses a very specific core option, is not power creep.

An excellent point, especially when combined with the idea that different people have different definitions of balance.

If a person feels that a core fighter is underpowered compared to a core wizard, options that increase the fighter's power are not power creep - just redressing the balance.

If a persoan feels that a core wizard is underpowered compared to a core fighter, options that increase the wizard's power are not power creep - just redressing the balance.

However, if WotC produces both sets of options, both sides will happily adopt one and quickly label the other "power creep".

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

I've yet to see a player ask to play a hulking hurler. Most players I have seen, if they go for PrCs at all, go for ones with cool images/concepts.

I think there is a certain min/maxer breed that follows the pattern you describe, but it's not universal.

Every player I've shown it to laughs at the Hulking Hurler, and wouldn't even think of playing one - the Hurler does his thing well, but really, who the hell wants to adventure as a big, stupid dope whose only schtick is trundling around with a bagfull of rocks?

"Man, that's cool" is the order of the day for picking PrCs in every group I've ever encountered.

Patrick Y.

 

[Zoatebix]

Sorry guys - I mis-voted from the front page. I'm really diggin MoogleEmpMog's arguments.

 

[Darkness]

I'm actually a little surprised no one's wanted an Ur Priest; maybe the danger of ticking off the gods scares players off.

A friend of mine told me about a recent campaign with an Ur-Priest PC. The PCs were all stranded in Baator and near death but managed to convince an allied church to rescue them.

They didn't rescue the Ur-Priest, though, so he died. (Following half the group into death, which had already died before that point.)

 

[Pants]

MONSTER CREEP

a) Now we're talking. There are some absolutely brutal monsters out there who seem way undercosted for their CR. MM3 is definitely more powerful than MM1, with the exception of dragons who were already outrageous for their CRs. Definite creep, but not enough evidence to see if it will get worse.

b) Even worse than a) - the average of MM3 is closer to the upper tier of MM1. Massive creep, but no pattern yet.

Wait... this a BAD thing?

Compare allied defense feat from shining south vs. um epic combat expertise in complete warrior.
That's feat vs. feat.

Also note that many of the EPIC feats weren't very EPIC in power at all.
Epic Weapon Focus anyone?

Compare a warlock to sorceror.
That's class vs. class.

1. The Sorcerer is often considered underpowered.
2. The warlock... doesn't even have anything close to the raw power and flexibility that a Sorcerer will have. It can use the few powers it gets unlimited times, but they don't compare against the higher level spells.
3. A more appropriate comparison would be the warmage and the sorcerer

There are plenty of overpowered feats and prestige classes in books like the Draconomicon, Complete Warrior, Complete Arcane, Races of Stone, and so on.

Such as?

Heck, even the 3.5 Player's Handbook has such overpowered bits as Power Attack (woe to those who once liked fighting with two weapons, or swashbuckling with a rapier, or daggerfighting, or anything else short of a greatsword) and some of the new spells in the 3.5 PHB (their names escape me at the moment).

Shapechange maybe?

 

[Talonne Hauk]

I'm not getting how options are overpowered. Overpowered between PCs? So what? When are you supposed to be at each other's throats? Overpowered versus the DM? Impossible, since the DM is the final arbiter on what's allowed to be in the game, and has even more options available than the players.
Come on. Everyone can munchkin their way into a specific niche, and be really, really good in a situation that occurs a small percentage of the time. Niche yourself to death, and a good DM will take advantage of that and put your character in a situation where he can't rely on his specialty. At least, that's what I do. My players seem to value well rounded characters.

 

[Crothian]

I'm not getting how options are overpowered. Overpowered between PCs? So what?

When one PC can do everything the other PCs can do, only better it can become a problem.