Examples of Power Creep?

[Gothic_Demon]

Too Complex for Power Creep?

Just a thought, but isn't DnD a little too complex for power creep?

Take Magic (as I feel this thread is probably hinting at as its source). If all the 2 mana cards in Core are 2/2, and all the 2 mana cards in Expansion 1 are 3/3, and all the 2 mana cards in Expansion 2 are 4/4, we are looking at Power Creep.

For DnD, this process is a little more difficult. Is Class A significantly and definably more powerful than class B? This is either so obvious it hurts or so subtle as to have us arguing over it on these boards for months. Is the Sorcerer underpowered? Is the Druid overpowered? I've been seeing these arguments since 3.5 began.

I'm not sure that DnD can be easily marked with a power-creep stamp. Some of the classes that come out in the newer books seem to be a little more powerful than core (Favoured Soul from the MH, or the Psion from XPH, in my opinion), some seem obviously weaker (Healer from the MH?), some are just different takes on a concept. Wizards tends to keep an eye on its power creep, carefully matching the core classes in its supplement books with the original core classes, and neither over or underpowering them deliberately, and giving them more flavour than new powers.

I think the issue comes with mixing and matching supplements (as others have said), that were never meant to be matched, (such as using FR supplements in a non-FR game). These supplements are often internally balanced, and don't mesh well with others. (Think 2e Dark Sun, and the races and classes therein).

So is there a lot of power creep? No, but rather some power playing creeps...

 

[diaglo]

The question is "Has power creep taken place in the 3.5 core rules as a result of 3.5 supplements?"

so then his and my answer would be yes.
edit: the comparison in your definition of power creep is flawed.

the way you word power creep. means i have to be better than all other classes as well as good at the thing i want to do.

however, that isn't the way power creep works.

unbalancing ala Marvel Superheroes from the 80's has taught us that.

 

[MerricB]

Even the idea that 3.5e is power crept from 3e isn't true. Witness the powering down of any options that gave bonuses to spell DCs. Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Red Wizard, etc.

Cheers!

 

[Navar]

Even the idea that 3.5e is power crept from 3e isn't true. Witness the powering down of any options that gave bonuses to spell DCs. Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Red Wizard, etc.

Cheers!

I won't comment on this issue because it doesn't matter in this thread. There are some combos people have posted, but the guy with 30 Str who has levels in several classes (barb/Cleric/etc.) I have to agree with whoever said he couldn't tell if you were joking or not becuase I can get a better build out of JUST the phb (no magic items.) Maybe the reason people think there is power creep is because they don't know how to make the most of the core books?

And the way I define power creep is how I mean it for this thread.

1) Is there a class that has come out that has been more powerful than a) one in the 3.5 Phb, b) a multiclass combo using classes and or PrCs the 3.5 PhB and DmG?

2) Is there a race that has come out that has been more powerful than one in the 3.5 Phb? (taking ECL into account)

3) Is there a PrC that has come out that has been more powerful than a) a straight class in the 3.5 Phb, or b) a multiclass combo using classes and or PrCs the 3.5 PhB and DmG?

4) Is there a feat that has come out that makes a character more powerful than the best build of the most powerful class/multiclass using the core 3.5 books?

5) Is there a spell that has come out that makes a character more powerful than the best build of the most powerful class/multiclass using the core 3.5 books?

6) Is there a Magic item that has come out that makes a character more powerful than the best build of the most powerful class/multiclass using the core 3.5 books?

7) Is there a combonation of any of the above that makes a character more powerful than the best build of the most powerful class/multiclass using the core 3.5 books?

(I will edit my post to put this on the front page)

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I've seen several PC frenzied berserkers - the tension and danger of the concept seem to appeal to players - but never an actual hulking hurler.

I've only seen the Hulking Hurler used as a PC once, myself. I used it as an example because someone used it as an example first.

[UrPriest]but even he was weaker than the core druids, clerics and wizards at higher levels.

The way to break the urpriest is to multiclass.

Since those are probably the strongest PrCs around (where is the proverbial "messload?")

Take a look at Complete Divine.

I still hold that the Suddens not only aren't broken, they're just plain awful. I've never seen them be anything other than festering tumors of uselessness on character sheets.

I hold they're not. Psionics in 3.0 had a problem where you could pull cheese like Sudden Metamagic (it took more feats) and that bent the system right out of shape. If it wasn't for MAD I would have called it the most broken part of 3.0 psionics.

But more importantly, those spell caps are there for a reason. IMO the feats would be more balanced if they didn't let you exceed the cap, but you could use them 3/day. (So a 12th-level mage could Maximize a 3rd-level spell 3/day while only using a 3rd level spell slot, but they couldn't Maximize chain lightning.

Also, once again, you haven't mentioned a single thing that's NEW.

How can it be power CREEP if the strongest material was printed over a year ago?

Since Complete Warrior and Complete Divine have come out, I haven't bought any new DnD crunch from WotC.

How can power creep be a FACT of RPG sales if it hasn't happened since then?

I'll let someone familiar with the newer stuff field that.

 

[Navar]

Look how many Charging Feats you can stack together to do some god awful damage?

Combine Leap Attack, Powerful Charge, Greater Powerful Charge, Flying Kick. (to name a few) With a Monk

Multi-class to Psychic Warrior throw in some Psionic Feats like Unavoidable Strike to make it a touch attack...You got yourself some serious damage!

Oh and I forgot Psionic Lion's Charge, to use with his Flurry Attack.

Just for me can you cite where you get these feats?

 

[Seeten]

I just dont see the power creep that is being discussed. There are no PrC's that make me think, "Hey, I should stop advancing as druid and become an X, I'll be more powerful." There is no feat I say, "I have to take this BEFORE I get Power Attack, its THAT good!" There is NO race I'd take over human, without roleplaying exceptions, because human is the best already and gets more feats.

The only place I see a problem is in the multiple stacking of similar options. This is only a problem if you dont want a specialist character in your games, or if he munchkins totally, and dips 7 PrC's for frontloaded abilities. Here is our fix for Dipping. Getting a class beyond your 3rd, counts for multiclassing xp penalties, even if all classes are within 1 level. So for your fourth class, you pay a %20 xp penalty. For your fifth, you pay yet more. Happy Dipping!

Yeah, you just grabbed all that power, but others are now higher level than you.

 

[KB9JMQ]

I would think it is all in the perception.
I have never seen what I would call powercreep.
How would you know that it has happened in your game?
None of my players have ever done/taken/aquired a feat/skill/race that all of a sudden threw them out of balance with the rest of the party.
Even if powercreep exists in theory if it is not applied it doesnt affect me.

I guess what I am saying is it may or may not exist but until it becomes blatant in my game I am not to worried about it.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Power creep means to me people creeped by apperant power in combinations they haven't ever seen in real games. Only in their mind and arguments over internet.

I think 3.5 edition contains a lot less power than 3.0 for spell-casters and somewhat more power for fighter-types. And who wins most with edition change, well, I feel it was monsters.

I am very min-max friendly dm and I allow mixing of editions. Well, as long as my players come up with semi-viable character-background.
And as long as concept fits with rest of the current party and campaing idea. I am not that liberal with items, neither with classes after character creation.

Strangely though, my players seem to be unable to come up with these combos I get to read on internet. Maybe because 'worst' of them aren't constant enough. I mean, doesn't matter much if you can do 1 to 5 times per day much damage under special circumstances.
And it's awfully hard to pull some combos in real game. You gotto survive all those levels before you get to lv 15 to 20, where some combo actually nets something in sense of power (over choosing base class, that is).


Oh, I am bit curious, does someone else really think evesion ring equals evasion ability? Ring isn't same thing as ability, right?
Never mind they do the same thing. See, otherwise I could use my higher skill through skill focus or good stat bonuses to get into prestige classes earlier, but it happens to state skill ranks. Not stats bonuses, not skill focus.

I think these kind of things are loop-holes mainly because some people want them to be. Blind kobolds and all...

 

[Markn]

Power Creep

I define power creep as a player using existing options to maximize a PC ability or set of abilities that become grossly overpowered to a similar class at an equal level.

In my mind one of the best examples is the warmage class. IMO, the class is far superior to a sorceror. It may not be as utilitarian as the sorceror class but by taking one level of wizard/sorceror you are now able to use any magic item, any scroll or any item that replicates a spell on your wizard/sorceror list (even if you don't know that spell but as long as it is on your list) and thus removes almost all restrictions that the warmage class has. Essentially, the class has an answer to every opponant that he fights and in great numbers as his selection is far greater than the sorceror. Need area affect spell? Check. Need a fire spell against fire vulnerable spell? Check. Need target spell? Check. Need to do any of these abilities over and over and over and over and over until it dies? Check!

Another example IMO is the spell Mass Fire Shield (Legion's Fire Shield). The single version of the spell is personal only and therefore the intent of the spell is used by the wizard/sorceror as a protective spell so he doesn't get his arse knocked around by a creature that is a serious melee threat. Now the mass version a) does not make sense since it takes a personal only spell and mekes it apply to everyone and b) the intent of the spell to protect a wizard now becomes an offensive spell when cast on the whole party as it effectively allows a fighter to deal damage while he is being hit and we all know that fighters go toe to toe with enemies and there enemies don't have much choice but to fight back.

Furthermore, spell selection for certain classes IMO is beginning to become blurred. There is a spell in the Complete Arcane that allows the warmage class to heal an ally with a ray (don't have access to the spell right now as I am at work). Granted, this spell is not part of their initial list but it is an evocation spell and therefore he can choose it later on. Doesn't make much sense to me... There is a spell from Complete Divine called Murderous Mist that Druids can cast. The spell permanently blinds subjects (and may do more though I can't be sure) and the spell requires a reflex save instead of a fort save. The reflex save is rather bizarre since it should be a fort save IMO. In addition to this there is no cap (that I am aware of) that limits its power in the way that Cloudkill has. If the creature has a poor save, no matter its hit dice or level it is really really hampered. In fact, many necromancy spells from the PHB have caps. See Circle of Death as an example.

From Races of Stone, the Goliath could be truly broken. Unless I have misread it (and it was some time ago) they are able to use a weapon one size category larger than themselves. If this is correct and they choose to become a Frenzied Beserker they will be capable of dealing horrendous amounts of damage (since their weapon is one size category larger) than any fighter from the PHB of any other race. The drawbacks it gets on other areas will not cancel this massive damage that it is capable of doing.

In a nutshell, the option books open up so many more options (which is a good thing when power level is comparable to the PHB) but con create some truly powerful classes. There are many more spells that have no save and no SR than in the PHB and you gotta wonder why this is...

However, rather than debate a lot of this stuff I think the best way to challenge people reading these posts is to have them examine their own campaigns. Do the wizards/druids/clerics or any subclass thereof always memorize certain spells from the splatbooks (or PHB for that matter)? If so, why? Does it offer more utility? Does it deal more damage? Does it have no save or SR? If the answer is yes to any of these then the spell is not balanced with the PHB or to the level it is on. Therefore, be default, the spell is more powerful for some reason. Maybe not in terms of damage, but maybe more protective, more applications for the spell and could be used in a variety of ways and so on. The same applies to fighters...Is there a weapon that is always chosen? A feat? A PrC? The point is, if something is always chosen there is reason for it.

I remember one of the designers specifically stating that they were trying to balance spells so that one spell of a given level was not any more desirable than another and therefore would not necessarily be memorized every day by that class. That, to me, is a tell tale sign that spell is balanced/ ability, feat, class, etc.

I would like to hear about what spells, feats, etc outside the PHB that people see on a regular basis. Those answers in and of itself should be the power creep you are looking for...