Examples of Power Creep?

[Markn]

Victim

What's wrong with a wizard carrying around a bunch of scrolls and wands? Nothing that I can see. Not exactly a fair analogy IMO though. One breaks a class by multiclassing, the other does what it does best - make items to make himself stronger.

I agree the warmage does not have control magic and is limited in certain areas. In a direct comparison I would say, sure these are big drawbacks. However, 3.5 is based on a group of 4 players, one of which is almost always another caster - cleric or druid most likely. They make up where the warmage leaves off. Now the party has the utility spells and the potency of the warmage. Believe me, I am speaking from my experiences with the class that more often than not its strengths overshadow greatly its weaknesses, particularly so when running stock adventures or dungeon modules that you don't do heavy editing to. Others may not see this so YMMV on the warmage class.

 

[Markn]

Firelance

I didn't notice the power of the warmage till he gained 3rd level spells. Or until creatures come along that have a particular weakness such as fire/cold vulnerability. He takes that weakness and destroys the creature with it. Wait till he can cast Mass Fire Shield on the group and you'll see how the DM has to alter a lot of tactics...

 

[MerricB]

It isn't necessary for the warmage to take the wizard level early on. Just that it can be done. Honestly, IMO fireball isn't an end all be all spell. Remember, if you are able to cast 5 of the same spells from your reprotoire (sp?) that are extremely effective against whatever you are fighting, are you going to miss fireball? Not at all.

Actually, there's a big difference between fireball and the 2nd level spells. Although against a single opponent, fireball isn't that great, multiple opponents are fairly common in the games I've run.

It's really only at higher levels (9th+) that you start coming against enemies that make the warmage's choice of spells relevant. Against lower level enemies, there's no real difference between a fire spell and an acid spell.

Fireball is the first spell that does significant damage against a lot of enemies, and remains one of the best offensive spells for several levels.

Just curious...Have you seen a warmage in play?

Yes. Only briefly, though - one in a Greyhawk game that died quickly, and another is playing in the Eberron campaign I started today.

It was interesting to see the 1st level warmage last night, actually - weaker than I expected. A wizard would be casting colour spray or sleep to take out a number of enemies, but the warmage was reduced to casting magic missile for d4+2 damage on one opponent. (I think that the warmage in question should have had a 14 Int, but another player created it). Still, the point stands.

I've seen a lot of sorcerers and wizards to compare those two classes, however.

The sorcerer in my group used fireball, melf's acid arrow, magic missile and just kept using them. Dimension door and invisibility were used as appropriate. The wizard, however, made a lot more use of crafted magic items to do the big blasting spells, and then had a lot of utility spells as well. (Melf's is relatively weak, but before CA it was one of the few spells that got past Spell Resistance).

Where the Wizard and Sorcerer came into their own (as opposed to the warmage) was in the utility spells, even though the Sorcerer had a much lesser selection.

Cheers!

 

[Markn]

Merric

I agree that Fireball does open up a lot of doors for spellcasters in terms of targeting enemies and dealing with numerous enemies at once. In fact I think the best time to take a wizard level if you are playing a warmage is at 7th level when you have already gotten fireball.

My next point was going to be that a lot of acid spells avoid saves and SR but I was just looking at the orb spells and I see that they are all the same...interesting.

Still I would be interested in hearing how your warmage makes out in your campaign. I am curious how he develops and if he is played correclty (but if another player made the character I am guessing it is a relatively new player...).

In my current campaign, the warmage just seems to have an answer for everything. Need to avoid fire, elect, cold, acid, etc? Use a sonic spell. He has come close to dying in the campaign several times and the party has even been captured twice in the campaign and I would speculate that a wizard/sorceror would likely have spells for such an event but in a typical fight the warmage hands down knocks the enemies around.

Victim

I should point out that the warmage can add evocation spells which include most wall spells and forcecage so his control magic can and does exist...

 

[MerricB]

He has come close to dying in the campaign several times and the party has even been captured twice in the campaign and I would speculate that a wizard/sorceror would likely have spells for such an event but in a typical fight the warmage hands down knocks the enemies around.

Absolutely - the warmage is made for combat. I'd hope he was at least slightly superior to other casters in that situation, because the drawback of the warmage is how weak he is out of combat. (The other drawback is in how weak he can be in certain types of combat; though thankfully those times don't come up that often).

Cheers!

 

[Markn]

Merric

That is actually my issue with the class in a nutshell. He is made for combat and anything done outside of that he is rather unspectacular. Problem is, most D&D campaigns are based on combat and a class designed around something that exists fairly heavy in most campaigns doesn't have much drawback. Besides, role playing in and of itself doesn't kill you - combat does! So a class that calls this as its strength bothers me since it is an integral part of the game.

 

[MerricB]

That is actually my issue with the class in a nutshell. He is made for combat and anything done outside of that he is rather unspectacular. Problem is, most D&D campaigns are based on combat and a class designed around something that exists fairly heavy in most campaigns doesn't have much drawback. Besides, role playing in and of itself doesn't kill you - combat does! So a class that calls this as its strength bothers me since it is an integral part of the game.

Although most D&D campaigns are based on combat, I don't think they are entirely combat. It's not role-playing that is the other challenge involved, either - there are traps, obstacles and suchlike. Not having teleport is a major disadvantage, IMO.

For instance, if the Warmage came up against a Prismatic Wall, he couldn't get rid of it. Full stop. Your wizard or sorcerer could (though the sorcerer would have to get a scroll). If you multiclass the warmage, he's no longer superior to the sorcerer in combat.

If you assume that the majority of sorcerer spells work as effectively as those of the warmage in combat, the only bonuses the warmage has are a couple of sudden feats (very minor bonus - they're much more effective for a wizard) and the Warmage Edge, which is a very minor effect at high levels.

The wizard's utility spells are not properly duplicated by the cleric, btw.

Cheers!

 

[Testament]

No, you only need to take 1 level of wiz and precocious apprentice (wraithstrike) feat from complete arcane. Plain old core rules pearls of power are all you need to cast this spell as many times as you want.
No effectiveness lost. Effectiveness shoots through the roof actually.

Precocious Apprenctice is not a core feat, its a sidebar "concept" feat for Arcane Campaigns. Frankly, I don't know of any sane GM who'd allow those feats.

 

[Testament]

Oh now this much is VERY clear.
There were NIL complaints about the druid being "weak" leading up to 3.5.
In 3.5 core vs. core 3rd edition they got:

1.Relaxed druidic oaths

2.Summoning spell slot burn + an improved Summoning feat

3.Natural spell

4.Spot and listen as class skills (need a ranger anymore... no)

5.Free animal empathy (effectively)

6.Wild armor

7.Cheap dragonhide full platemail, monk's belt that allows silly levels of AC.

8.No more beast or dire or size restrictions so dinosaurs are legit wildshapes as are dire weasels at level 5.

9.Polymorph changed to include creature type so Wildshape changed too and thus you get things like plant tyep which gives you: immunity to critical hits, sneak attack, paralysis, stunning, mind affecting spells (including 3.5 power-words oddly enough). You can also cast spells like animal growth on yourself.

10.Ex abilities from 3.5 wildshape like blood drain from a dire weasel that's un-resistable Con damage and so forth.

11.Poached wizard spells like "polymorph other, jump, gust of wind, spider climb, move earth, stoneskin, wind wall" - at the same level as the wizard no less! Anything remotely associated with an animal or elements in the name or even in the bloody component they gave to druids. Why jump? Grasshopper leg. Yeah that makes sense...

12.All their spells went down in level (to arcane levels again in some cases), like "ice storm, earthquake, sleet storm, produce flame, speak with animals, quench. Most arcane spells went up in level.

Sorry, Druids were hella weak in 3.0. Their spell list was so back loaded that surviving to a decent level was a challenge and a half.

1. How are they relaxed?

2. An augment summoning feat that anyone can take, and requires a burned feat in Spell Focus (Conjuration).

3. Added in "Masters of The Wild", a 3.0 book

4. Yeah, since someone who lives out in the wild shouldn't have them, nooo!

5. It was silly as a skill, shouldn't it be an inherent ability to a Druid? And it's been weakened as a result of being linked to class level, since you start with 1+CHA, rather than 4+CHA. And no more skill focusing.

6. Added in "MOTW", and is an invaluable addition. Otherwise you're a low-AC disaster waiting to happen. And at 15,000 GP, it ain't cheap either!

7. And no-one else can benefit from Monk's Belts, can they?

8. So? Aren't Dire Animals animals too?

9 & 10. Multiple magical size changes don't stack. See the Errata. In many ways, Polymorph got weaker, as you no longer gain any inherent physical special abilities OTHER than movement, attack and Type. So no Blindsense from Bat form, not even low-light vision. I'd rather have them. And what is thematically wrong with being able to change into a plant. Also, many of the dire forms are hideously weak compared to other forms, until you get to the HD point where you got dire form ANYWAY! Oh, and an attached Dire Weasel is one heck of a low AC disaster.

11. Yeah, since a master of the natural world, and thus, by extension, WEATHER shouldn't be able to cast things like Wind Wall (struck me as silly as soon as I cracked open my 3.0 PHB back in 2000) or Move Earth! And things like Jump or Spider Climb enable them to emulate their charge's ablities, or lend those powers to their allies. Good thematic fit IMHO

12. Many of the spells that changed levels did so since they were USELESS at the level you got them. Produce Flame and Quench are good examples of that.

You really have an axe to grind against Andy. Did he steal your Ice Cream when you were a kid or something?

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Zelda Themelin,
In fact, as I have stated in other posts, what disappoints me the most is how sloppy the books are. Poor designs/wording of spells are my biggest pet peeves. The blurring of class spells is another. Why should a warmage be able to heal if an evocation spell allows healing? Why should healing spell be evocation? Why does Murderous Mist give a ref save vs the blindness effect, shouldn't it be fort? It's things like this that just kills consistency that the original designers created with 3.5...

I agree that some feats and spells are created sloppy, and I too dislike it, because it really points out that creators haven't bothered to learn the rules. Or don't so much care for them.


Worst spells I've seen are from varous Sword & Sorcery book, but so are some of the best. Best are either interestingly creative and or powerful spells (meant to be so), and worst are sloppily too powerful (by accident) or too weak in lame way.

All in all it's painfully obvious that there are just so many spells and feats, that there are bound to be those that are repentive, those not meant to be combined and many lame ones exist as well as too powerful ones.

I dislike most those those that are described (or just appear to be) powerful, when they are actually lamer than core stuff, or those that are supposed to be in line with core rules, but are mistakingly much more powerful, because of some little slight in ruling.

Yep, and I agree with Murderous mist and many other spells that don't work logically.

I don't mind blurring the class spells at all. I've never liked so much idea that only priest can heal. But need to create new spells that arcane casters can use to heal is just blah. Unless those spells do it in some new way, aka vampiric healing.

There are also too many damage spell that do the exactly same thing, but wow, then they suddenly have different saving methods, or other one can't be saved at all.
Recent conjuration vr. evocation stuff comes to mind. And how many lightning spells with 10d6 or 15d6 max damage we need?

It's rare to see spell which's damage can honestly rise above those "holy rules", but then they go around changing other things that shoudn't be changed anyway.

Ok, I kinda agree there is some kinda power creep. But it's kinda time-consuming to find. Complite books have avarage of one to two feats/spells/prc:s that are more powerful, or even at par with core stuff.

I've noticed that every power gamer discussion goes through the same motions, same classes, spells, feat every time. Most of that stuff in them isn't even mentioned after review listing.

I mean, especially since magic is weaker than in 3.0 who would want to shoot himself in a leg and pick prestige class which only gives 5 to 7 caster levels in 10 levels. And I have yet to find one of those in say... in Complite Arcana, that gives something good enough as trade off.

And who fighter wants to loose more than 2 of base attack and all those cool fighter's free feat picks.

Most so called power creeps are just cool refreshing sfuff to find among all that "blah". After seeing my players and myself mostly pick same core stuff over and over again.

And those who find power creepy stuff by combining things like FR/Eberron/Miniatures Handbook/D20 Modern are just asking for it. Those shoudn't even be compared to anything else than core rules, and in last two cases mentioned, not even to them.

So, if that is only way to find power creepiness, there isn't. 3rd party products added, sure there is. With Wotc complite books, yep, couple of badly planned spells mostly.

And there lies my true problem with complite books. They bore hell out of me, and some things are badly planned, though very rarely powerful because of it.
And they are killing the consistency. And that is problem. Power creeps are just thing people like to point fingers at, when there are errors in the system.