Examples of Power Creep?

[Talonne Hauk]

If the danger that's required to challenge PC A would be deadly to PCs B, C and D, you have a problem - either PC A walks over all your encounters, or the rest of the party is slaughtered.

Lesser cases of this extreme exist, obviously.

Wow. Take a day off from the boards and the responses fly by.

Anyhow, in regards to the above, it's not that huge a problem. Just dial up multiple EL/CR encounters. Or swarm the Buff Dude with more adversaries.
I can see the problem, don't get me wrong. But the real root of this "power creep" speculation is in combat only campaigns. In a properly balanced campaign, a versatile build is necessary.

 

[Navar]

How about a constructive exercise...Lets look at wizards spells. Go throught the PHB and mark say the top 5 spells for each of the first 5 levels. Now do the same using whatever splatebooks you want. Compare the top spells at each level. Look at damage, duration, versatility (is the spell effective against low level creatures, high level creatures, multiple creatures, fire creatures, ice creatures, etc), is there a saving throw allowed, SR? If you see spells as I do you should see that the top 5 from each level in the PHB will be weaker than the top 5 in the splatbooks. In fact, if you make a list and still do not agree with me then at least we have a starting point that we can each examine and say ' This is why I view the spell more powerful." At least we are not throwing examples at each other that are night and day to each other.

OK I don't think that top 5 from first 5 levels is as good an exercise as top 2 from top 5 levels (as at some levels #4-5 will not really be good spells) So here we go:

Level 1
#1 Sleep (at low levels this is Save or Die)
#2 Magic Missile (you can't miss, no Save, good to metamagic, etc)
Level 2
#1 Scorching Ray (GREAT damage, really too good for this level)
#2 Knock (always useful reguardless of level, awesome spell)
Level 3
#1 Dispel Magic (great spell, also VERY useful at almost every level)
#2 Hold Person (can't think of a better spell when fighting humoniods)
Level 4
#1 SCRYING (awesome spell, almost ruin the adventure good at times)
#2 Phantasmal Killer (save or die again fantastic spell)
Level 5
#1 Teleport (utility is king with this spell, return to town with gear, get stuff, raise people, etc)
#2 Baleful Polymorph (Also Save or die great for its level)

I don't think you will find a spell better than any of these in the Splatbooks. The only book I have here at work is Frostburn, and while it is a great book, the spells in it are to conditional to offer a good comparison. (well not really, they are worse even in frostfell, but . . .)

 

[Navar]

Stating that no class in the PHB can cast Ice Knife and therefore is not comparable IMO is incrorrect. That further enhances my position. The fact that a class outside the PHB has access to something else outside the PHB that a class inside the PHB doesn't get proves my point (at least in my mind )

Also this doesn't prove anything. If there was a class that could only cast 1 spell per day, but that spell was about 2 levels better than it should be (ie it, at first level could cast 1 spell (unique to it) that equaled a 3rd level wizard spell in power) then its spells would be better, but it would not be more powerful. As I said we don't agree on the Warmage (and I see others share my opinion) so we won't agree on this one either, but your warmage X/Wizard 1 won't get this spell until level 5 when the wizard is casting 3rd level spells (and this spell isn't better than the equivelant 3rd level wizard spells)

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I honestly don't think there is any real power creep except for a couple partially broken examples. Most of the time feats or PrC classes only get really powerful when combined in ways unforseen by the designers. The more options there are, the more there is a chance of this happening.

Even then, most of the "power combos" I've seen tend to work on ambiguous rules that even when I read them as written, *I* don't think those are in fact the way the rules work. People stack spells that I would never allow to stack, people use some of the charts in the book that say "these are guidelines and the DM should decide whether or not to allow this or modify this" and just assume that everyone will use it exactly as written.

Frenzied Berzerker is broken, IMHO, and a lot of stuff from BoED is also. This is because in those cases they tried to do what they swore they wouldn't do in 3rd edition, balance a hard, statistical advantage with a role playing disadvantage.

Divine Metamagic isn't broken almost at all except in the case of persistant spell. IMHO, Persistant spell is broken by itself, it just becomes more broken with divine metamagic.

 

[Navar]

Even then, most of the "power combos" I've seen tend to work on ambiguous rules that even when I read them as written, *I* don't think those are in fact the way the rules work. People stack spells that I would never allow to stack, people use some of the charts in the book that say "these are guidelines and the DM should decide whether or not to allow this or modify this" and just assume that everyone will use it exactly as written.

What is an example (in your opinoin) of a "Power combo"?

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Frenzied Berzerker is broken, IMHO, and a lot of stuff from BoED is also. This is because in those cases they tried to do what they swore they wouldn't do in 3rd edition, balance a hard, statistical advantage with a role playing disadvantage.

Killing or being killed by your entire party is a role-playing disadvantage? It seems to cause no end of tactical problems for the FBs I've seen, not to mention their friends. When you consider that "power" really translates into "resource management," I'm not sure Frenzied Berserker is really all that great. To use a Magic the Gathering analogy, FB is more Yukora the Prisoner (an OK card) than Arcbound Ravager (a card that changed an entire set of Magic).

Divine Metamagic isn't broken almost at all except in the case of persistant spell. IMHO, Persistant spell is broken by itself, it just becomes more broken with divine metamagic.

I'm not so sure. Persistant spell probably IS broken - has it even been reprinted in 3.5? I don't remember seeing it, but it might be in CD or CA and I just put it out of my mind - but it's Tooth and Nail (a strong but not dominant card) to Divine Metamagic's Arcbound Ravager. The latter takes something basically useless and makes it quite useful, and it has great synergy with lots of other feats.

 

[Mr. Lobo]

7) Is there a combonation of any of the above that makes a character more powerful than the best build of the most powerful class/multiclass using the core 3.5 books?

The absence of an example using a side by side comparison of same level characters using the best of core + splatbooks vs core build only in these posts is rather telling I think.

Personally, I haven't paid much attention to power creep only because I don't own very many splatbooks. The one I did buy was Hero Builders Guidebook but promptly sold that off to someone who really liked it. I didn't.

The only "splatbooks" I own are FR based (Magic of Faerun, Lords of Darkness, and the Campaign Setting itself).

I've ran a campaign where the characters took certain prestige classes (Dragon Disciple I think was one) but didn't really notice that the one char was overpowered vs the other chars of the same level. None of the players complained about it.

Just my $0.02

 

[Pants]

I'm not so sure. Persistant spell probably IS broken - has it even been reprinted in 3.5? I don't remember seeing it, but it might be in CD or CA and I just put it out of my mind - but it's Tooth and Nail (a strong but not dominant card) to Divine Metamagic's Arcbound Ravager. The latter takes something basically useless and makes it quite useful, and it has great synergy with lots of other feats.

Yes, but it's been upped to +6 spell levels rather than what it was before (+4, I think?).

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Yes, but it's been upped to +6 spell levels rather than what it was before (+4, I think?).

Which book?

Anyway, that makes it less T&N, more Broodstar - still worth the price, but bearable.

 

[Crothian]

Which book?

Anyway, that makes it less T&N, more Broodstar - still worth the price, but bearable.

complete arcane