Excerpt: Economies [merged]

[Brown Jenkin]

Anything else doesn't make sense.

But unfortunately there are some DMs that don't want to give that kind of control to the players. I agree with you but otheres have different points of view. It could be that they want to run a very magic poor campaign (which should be made clear to the players ahead of time), it could be they are afraid the players will come up with a combo they hadn't considered which could spoil an adventure they planned, It could be that they are afraid that giving that kind of control to the players will break the game rules (even though buying and selling are part of the rules).

 

[Fanaelialae]

But unfortunately there are some DMs that don't want to give that kind of control to the players. I agree with you but otheres have different points of view. It could be that they want to run a very magic poor campaign (which should be made clear to the players ahead of time), it could be they are afraid the players will come up with a combo they hadn't considered which could spoil an adventure they planned,

And some DMs might think that it might be best to (at least initially) run the game the way the designers intended it, because they [the designers of the game] just might have had a reason for setting up the treasure rules as they did.

It could be that they are afraid that giving that kind of control to the players will break the game rules (even though buying and selling are part of the rules).

There are rules for selling to NPC merchants for 20% "retail", and buying from them for 110% to 140% "retail" (or as low as 90% if you use the merchant-heavy variant). I don't recall anyone objecting to these rules (except for those who feel that it undercuts the PCs and that the PCs should get more out of the sale). I can't say that I see any rules at all for players selling directly to NPCs for 100%+ "retail" value, which is what most of the debate seems to be directed at.

IMO, for reasons that have been pointed out multiple times in this thread, for both economic and game balance reasons the rules seem quite good as written, and the PCs probably should be prevented from exceeding the 20% selling price by large margins.

 

[JohnSnow]

I just don't get it.

I've read a bunch of this stuff about not letting players buy/sell magic items, or restricting it, placing limits, nerfing the whole idea.

Why?

In our world, you can buy a car. Drive it for a while. Then sell it to someone else. No restrictions, no limits, no nerfs.

Or buy a home. Or buy a computer. Or buy a pair of socks. And you can sell those things too. Or even give them away.

Modern world. Modern economy. Modern markets. Modern concepts of equity. Modern population numbers. D&D is NOT a "modern world." It's a medieval world. An ancient one, to be sure, but it's no more comparable to the "modern world" than the latter is to Star Trek's moneyless future economy.

At BEST, a D&D world (especially a PoL one) would resemble the economic conditions of the Roman Empire or Europe during the Renaissance.

Situationally, sure, some areas with small populations and little cash flow are definitely not good markets to buy and sell valuable items, whether it be gems, paintings, tapestries, or magic items. But in larger, more lucrative economies, there will definitely be markets for all of these things, including magic items.

Anything else doesn't make sense.

A good-sized modern metropolitan area is 500,000 people, or more. A GARGANTUAN renaissance-era metropolis (like, say, Rome) is 100,000 - maybe. Most "cities" have populations more like 10,000 to 25,000.

Now, of that population, 90% are farmers or common laborers. That means all but 1/10th of the population is not going to have a snowball's chance in hell of affording your pricey object. So, in a Rome-sized metropolis, we're down to 10,000 people by just eliminating the poor and destitute. Now, we can eliminate another half as the lower middle class, people who are reasonably successful, but well below the ability to afford an object of the type you're talking about. Now we're down to 5,000 potential customers, which constitutes the soldiers, adventurers, wealthy, and nobility in the city. Now, of those, at least half still can't afford even a first-level magic item. So, now, before we get to an item the PCs can have at LEVEL 1, we're down to 2,500 people - 1 person in 40.

Let's guess-timate that of those, 80% are probably uninterested in your gizmo for one reason or another - they don't like magic weapons, wands aren't their thing, whatever. Now, we're down to about 500 guys who can afford a 1st-level magical gizmo and might be interested in the one you have. These 500 guys mostly hang around in one section of town and hobnob with their friends.

Assuming standard demographic fall-off of half for each level up you go, that means your potential customers for a 2nd-level item are 250 guys. By 3rd, it's 125. By 4th, it's 60 or so. By 9th, there's probably only a couple people in a city the size of Rome who are interested. In most cities, you can't move a 7th-level item. In most towns, you'd be lucky if you could sell a single 1st-level item.

And who are they likely to buy from? Some scruffy adventurer they've never met claiming his sword is "magical?" Or Volo the Trader, who provided them with the silks for the outfit they wore to the Midsummer's Ball last year? And the spices for the feast. And the diamonds they gave to their paramour last winter...

I think the answer's obvious.

PCs aren't, by default, merchants. They don't have the connections to get anything like full price, because they're spending their time in dungeons killing monsters and taking their stuff rather than in cities going to balls and impressing noble ladies with their dance steps. And their coin greasing the paws of whoever controls a particular kind of trade.

As I've said, you can absolutely make a campaign out of PC merchants. But in a pre-modern market, selling something just isn't as easy as it is with the internet and amazon. Did anyone of you claiming this would be "easy" ever try to sell something via the classified ads? Did it ever occur to you that THAT would be a vast improvement over the methods your D&D character has available to him?

His options are more like what we can do at a swap meet, flea market, or a garage sale. And how far do you have to mark stuff down to move it at one of those? Honestly, letting the PCs get 20% is generous.

For high-priced items, there's auction houses. And they'll buy for whatever you'll sell for. I might allow a savvy PC to negotiate the merchant's offer up, just as I'd allow him to try to negotiate the sale price down.

 

[Serensius]

Eh? one FIFTH?? That's just dumb. So a 50,000 GP greatsword +3 of KoboldCrunchiness, you sell it for 10,000 gp, no WAY are my players gonna accept that rubbish, nor should I expect them too (unless they blow a skill check and get fleeced ).

So you plan on telling your players how much the item is worth? Hm.

 

[gizmo33]

Modern world. Modern economy. Modern markets. Modern concepts of equity. Modern population numbers. D&D is NOT a "modern world." It's a medieval world.

If by "medieval" you mean that the implied setting of DnD is historical medieval Europe than I would disagree, and list a number of obvious differences, let's say elves (or, of more obvious relevance, the mercane). These differences IMO are substantial and would impact even this particular aspect of the campaign world. Another problem that I see with using Medieval Europe is that many of the commodity prices, as well as standards of living, are anything but historical. Compare the wages of a laborer, the value of a knights fee, and the equivalent numbers in 3E DnD, say for instance the monthly expense for "wealthy" status, and I think you might find that historical values are of little use in making sense out of DnD (at least prior versions). "Moderately rich" people in DnD are *way* richer than IRL AFAICT.

Also, as you say, you can consider elements of (not even in their entirety) Renaissance Europe and the Roman Empire. I see no logical reason to exclude Arab or Chinese society from the period either. Again, picking and choosing those elements that you want from whatever society. 3E DnD assumed a pretty high degree of literacy (all but barbarians, IIRC) among the PCs. Anything but "Medieval" AFAICT.

Your calculations for the market size of a metropolitan area seem to include only persons who live within the walls of the city itself (or maybe including the immediate area), which IMO is forgetting a huge number of persons who would actually buy and sell within the city. Also, you assume that the state itself, and the private armies maintained by merchants, etc. would not be customers for a +1 sword. I think customers of the +1 sword would not be just adventurers.

I would expect that "scruffy adventurers" would be the best people to buy magic items from. "Volo" is probably a little too educated about the value of his wares for a fellow merchant to see much use in dealing with him. Any competent dealer in magic items, like those who deal IRL in gems and metals, isn't going to simply rely on the reputation of the seller. A scruffy adventurer would be a nice place to make a few extra gp, though I think he might try to buy and item for 20% of it's price, such a swindle might not be the average result.

The PCs aren't merchants, but many of them have very high diplomacy scores, and the old prejudice of assuming that all PCs are monster-bashing thugs IMO doesn't suit well a game that makes it possible to play other types of characters. There's no reason to stick all PCs throughout the game with results that would even arguably be suitable only for the most anti-social and naive adventurer.

The only precedence I see for a x5 mark-up historically would be the spice trade (other than very local market fluctuations, etc. which are irrelevant IMO for determining general characteristics). IMO are there are a number of differences between the spice trade and magic item trade that makes it not helpful. Basically, making a 500% profit on a magic item, given the huge amounts of money involved, and considering the even inflated costs of living standard for what 3E DnD says was a wealthy person, it's hard to see why groups of merchants aren't accosting adventurers at the gates of every city. Think about it - buy a 10,000 gp item for 2,000 gp and make 8,000+ gp profit!? So it takes you all month to sell it, boo hoo! 8,000 gp is an awesome amount of money for even an entire year's work if the monthly living expenses are any guide.

 

[Alratan]

A good-sized modern metropolitan area is 500,000 people, or more. A GARGANTUAN renaissance-era metropolis (like, say, Rome) is 100,000 - maybe.

A couple of minutes of research would be enough to tell you that this is just not true. The population of Rome in Antiquity was around a million people.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Fountain Soda is one notable exception to this rule: the last time I worked in the industry, the amount of syrup/water/CO2 in a 32 oz. soda cost less that $.15 - you would be hard pressed to convince me that the convenience of combining the ingredients for the customer justified a $1.54 mark up we charged.

Nope. Not the convenience at all, just the viability of the whole business. Most fast food restaurants would go under if they didn't sell drinks.

 

[DandD]

A couple of minutes of research would be enough to tell you that this is just not true. The population of Rome in Antiquity was around a million people.

Ehrm, he did write Renaissance, where Rome indeed had far far less inhabitants than at its glorious height as capital of its own empire in the antiquity.
A couple of seconds reading might show that he's correct.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

A couple of minutes of research would be enough to tell you that this is just not true. The population of Rome in Antiquity was around a million people.

renaissance != antiquity

 

[TheWyrd]

I can't say that I'm 100% happy with what I see here.. but in the games I've run I was never big on sticking to the gold per level rules anyway. Lots of good ideas and problems on this thread. I think what I'm going to end up doing is:

The majority of magic items carry a curse. Not a BIG curse mind you, but enough that the common folk really don't want anything to do with them. A baseline "May you live in interesting times." Isn't going to bother an adventurer.. but will piss off a farmer who keeps getting monsters rampaging through his fields. Not all items will be cursed this way (see item )

Drop the parcel value down a bit (75%, a level?, we'll see when I see the full rules) and then add on an additional "bonus" parcel level up to 25% above the base parcel. That way completing the adventure will get you a certain base amount of loot.. but bargaining/finding secret doors/etc actually nets you something extra.

Residiuum isn't an object but rather a class of objects. Rare gems, starmetal, phoenix feathers in cloaks, the occassional fairy dust. All of these can be pulled from a magic item and used to augment or create other magic items and sometimes the PCs will need to quest for the stuff just so they can create the item they want.

No magic stores. Most of the PCs will start off with a very basic magic item inherited from their parents or whatever. "Uncle Ben, you never told me the sword hanging over the Mantel was my father's MAGIC sword." Over time they'll find other items and either use it to enhance what they have ("Lets see if the violet flame gem can be embedded in my shield") or they'll adopt it for their own use. ("Wow, my very own set of magic armor.")

Those who will purchase magic items do so for very good reasons. The local Wizard college will pay 150% price(possibly more) for the +1 Wand belonging to the founder of the college, thought lost in the great disaster. The temple of Pelor in the City of Brass however is only going to be paying 20% price for a +3 Holy Symbol. ("Yeah, we've got a room full of those in the back.. we sell them to initiates who lost their own.")


Ok. That's what I've got. I'm tapped out after my first post.