Excerpt: Minions. Go forth mine minions! Bring havoc with your 1 hp [merged]

[med stud]

And it's completely impossible for people to be killed by tossed stones.

Look at his post again. He said a child is throwing a stone ffs, get the quote in context please!

I very much know that stones can kill people. I know about stoning. I know about David and Goliath. That wasn't what Voss was talking about, though. Now if Voss was instead talking about a well trained seventeen year old who threw a well balanced stone with good precision, my argument doesn't hold. It didn't seem like that, though.

 

[DandD]

Only simulationists have a problem with the minion rules. People who outgrew that phase don't. Of course, seeing as D&D 4th edition clearly states that this is for purely gamist value, no simulationist would have a problem with those rules, as they would automatically ignore it, unless they purposefully chose not to and want to think too much about it.

Admin here. Please see the first post on the next page. ~ Piratecat

 

[Lizard]

That is the 4wesome part of the statblocks is that there is no breakdown for monsters, so it doesn't really matter if they are wearing full plate, have mithril scales covering thier bodies or are wearing frilly pink tutus they have the ac that is appropriate to thier level, and the PC's won't be walking around with major armouries in bags of holding

Phaezen

And the awesome lasts just until a PC says "I rip the shield off his arm with my telekinesis!" (Or any of a dozen other ways) and the game grinds to a halt while everyone looks up the bonus for a shield so the revised Reflex and Armor defense can be calculated, because putting them in the stat block might have made the numbers too scary.

 

[AllisterH]

Oh no, I sense another

"Do/Should the rules govern the gameworld or just the PCs" thread....

Let's take your example of the evil priest attacking the princess. Unless the PCs are in the room, why does it matter what the stats are for the minion? Hell, even if they ARE in the room, unless they physically interact with the minion, it shouldn't matter...

 

[Voss]

If your point is that you can just use monsters 4 levels lower than a level-appropriate minion, and achieve about the same results, you're probably right. The advantage to using the minions is that, by XP values, you can use twice as many (125 XP for a level 2 goblin VS 63 for a level 6 minion.) With the minions, you'll never have to track a condition like harpooned. And of course, you'll never have to track which creatures have taken damage and how much.

Like the article said, minions are purely there for DM convenience. They exist to allow a certain type of fight scene in a way that doesn't put too much of a drain on the DM's time and resources. They allow you to essentially extend the useful life of monsters. You'll notice in the article that it recommends switching a monster out with minions 7-8 levels after you've fought the original monster. That's exactly when monsters that originally needed an 12 or so to hit now need a 19 or 20.

Unfortunately, you're encountering monsters purely as minions in the first place (legion devils), or mixed in with real monsters of the same type that function largely the way PCs do (kobolds, orcs). If you first encounter real kobolds, and then 7-8 levels later, they're replaced with disposable kobolds that you could one shot, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. After 7 or 8 levels, being able to easily slaughter things that were threats
originally isn't that much of a stretch. It stretches believablility a little, but not excessively.

However, it doesn't work like that. You hit minions from the very beginning, mixed in with credible opponents. That, to me, isn't believable at all. You really could conceivably drag along a pack of children to throw rocks at the minions while you deal with the real threats. When kobold A can take 3 hits with an axe, and kobold B falls to a single pointy stick, I'm going to notice. And I'm going to want an in-game reason for why it happens. And frankly so is my character- Magnus the paladin is going to be wanting an explanation for why some kobolds can take a greatsword to the face while others fall immediately. Is he killing kobold children now? That could very well be against his code of honor.

The sacrifice comes, as you mention, in believability. Of course, all the examples you mention that stretch belief all involve "lucky hits" or natural 20s. It seems to me that you've discovered that when you take one effect that doesn't scale well across levels (natural 20s by weak creatures) and combine it with another (minions having 1 hp) that you run into unbelievable scenarios. That makes sense. You've already stretched believability twice. How elastic do you think that stuff is?

Not very, and thats part of the problem. D&D combat is already heavily abstracted, but I can live with it. Adding additional levels of pure abstraction that are completely out of touch with both reality and the game's assumptions is just a bad way to go.

 

[Lacyon]

My understanding was that AC=Reflex+Armor.

I'm not sure that's the case. I know it appears to be the case, because Reflex and AC are based on the same stat, and the 1/2 level bonus applies to both, so (particularly at low levels) typically the armor is the only difference between the two.

EDIT: Thinking about this further, it actually makes no sense for AC to be Reflex + Armor. If that were the case, the neck slot would add to AC and you'd never need magic armor for that (or else you'd get a double-boost to AC from magic armor and neck slot).

Boy, it would be nice if the sources of armor values were broken out in the description, so that it's easy to see what provides what and calculate the difference if something changes -- i.e, if a shield is sundered or removed -- without having to have memorized the values for shields, armor, etc. Something like "AC 20 +16 Reflex +4 Armor" or "Reflex 18 +4 Level +2 Dex +2 Shield" or the like. Perhaps by the time fifth edition rolls around, this kind of cutting-edge design will be used.

The only things you might break would be armor and shields, and those can be back calculated if you need them. Penalties to Dex and the like can be handled indirectly, likewise something that reduces natural armor bonuses or whatever.

Alternatively, you could just remove all the abilities that literally say they sunder someone's shield, and replace them with powers that inflict a -2 penalty to AC and, when said power is used against a foe with a non-magical shield, fluff it up as breaking the shield, and in other cases you're doing something else suitably distracting to the target.

Not sure why people are excited about cluttering up the stat block with things it really doesn't need.

 

[Benimoto]

Anyone want to compare two similar monsters (a minion soldier versus a soldier) that we have *official* stats for?

You can compare the level 3 Orc Raider (a skirmisher) with the level 11 Legion Devil Hellguard. They're both worth 150 XP.

The Orc has 17 HP, 17 AC and attacks at +8 vs. AC for 1d12 + 3 damage (crit 1d12 + 15).

The Hellguard has 1 HP, 27 AC (29 with squad defense) and attacks at +16 vs. AC for 6 damage.

You can see that if the hellguard had 17 HP like the orc that most of the orc's hits would be criticals that would kill it instantly. On the other hand, the Hellguard hits the orc on every attack (except a natural 1, which would hit if it wasn't an automatic miss) and needs 3 hits to kill it, or 4-5 if the orc gets off its special ability Warrior's Surge. Odds slightly favor the hellguard, even if the Orc can hit on a 19.

Interesting. I suppose the real comparison would be with the monsters the article mentions, ie. 16th level Abyssal Ghouls vs. the 23rd level Abyssal Ghoul Myrmadons.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

And the awesome lasts just until a PC says "I rip the shield off his arm with my telekinesis!" (Or any of a dozen other ways) and the game grinds to a halt while everyone looks up the bonus for a shield so the revised Reflex and Armor defense can be calculated, because putting them in the stat block might have made the numbers too scary.

Your hand-wave fu is not strong. 4e's core mechanic is the hand-wave. You better brush up.

I think I'll sell a paper cutout of a hand with 4e on it. When a rules question like this comes up, you just flash the hand above the DM screen.

Surely I can make at least as much money off that as a Jump to Conclusions mat.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I would have gone maybe with a minion dies when hit with an attack that deals 1/2 its level in damage. If it takes less damage it is merely bloodied. A second hit kills it then...

But thats an easy houserule...

 

[Voss]

Only simulationists have a problem with the minion rules. People who outgrew that phase don't. Of course, seeing as D&D 4th edition clearly states that this is for purely gamist value, no simulationist would have a problem with those rules, as they would automatically ignore it, unless they purposefully chose not to and want to think too much about it.

Sorry, but I have a lot of trouble with the idea that 4th edition is for people who value not thinking. Thats demeaning to the game, the developers and everyone who plays it.