Excerpt: Multiclassing (merged)

[FireLance]

But he's still trading the power he likes least of his current powers for the one he likes most of the other class' powers. There's clearly some value added here, in a way that "replacing best with the best" doesn't convey.

Again, that's not entirely correct. The power he likes the least from his selected primary class powers is quite likely to be of lower level than the power he likes the best from his seconday class. In many cases, he will have to either give up a power he likes quite a bit, or select a power that he does not like quite as much.

In other words,

Primary class powers not selected < least-liked selected primary class power [1] < most-liked selected primary class power [2] < most liked secondary class power [3]

In most cases, the player will be trading [2] for [3], not [1] for [3].

 

[hong]

As a quick question for you Hong: If I'm playing a fighter, with int 18 and str 8. It takes no feat investment to swap powers, so I take all wizard powers. Now I'm a wizard, with better armor and weapon profs, better HP, and more healing surges. Why do you maintain that this is not more powerful than being a straight wizard? If you agree that it is more powerful, then all we're discussing is the relative value of feats as currency, which is something we lack enough information to discuss at all reasonably.

Like I said before, I'm assuming that feats are going to be a substantial contributor to overall effectiveness. I basically don't see people spending more than a couple of feats to grab some powers.

 

[Bishmon]

Which maybe is the reason I said the feat is the cost of multiclassing.

So what are you spending the feat on? I mean, if choosing a power with this multiclassing feat is no different than choosing Cleave over Tide of Iron, two equal-level powers, why the feat? Just so you add other equal-level powers to go alongside Tide of Iron on the list of things you didn't select?

The point is, the feat has to increase your effectiveness in some way, ideally at a similar level to other feats. So how is this feat doing that?

 

[mach1.9pants]

No, I meant it exaclty how I wrote it.

You have Bob the Cleric. Bob takes the feat. Bob the Cleric can now pick spells off the wizard list of spells in addition to his cleric list of spells.

Nope he can pick ONLY one spell from the wizard list. he can upgrade that spell as he levels, but he can only ever have one arcane spell on his powers known- the rest must be cleric powers.

 

[Incenjucar]

Some choices will be better than others, that's just rather obvious.

There are some really great synergies available, such as super-mobile strikers dropping a paladin's challenge, and then there will be things less likely to be useful, like a wizard with tide of iron.

But the thing is to avoid making it too easy to have a Bow-Using Ranger with Fly.

 

[Kordeth]

So what are you spending the feat on? I mean, if choosing a power with this multiclassing feat is no different than choosing Cleave over Tide of Iron, two equal-level powers, why the feat? Just so you add other equal-level powers to to go alongside Tide of Iron on the list of things you didn't select?

The point is, the feat has to increase your effectiveness in some way, ideally at a similar level to other feats. So how is this feat doing that?

By giving you options you wouldn't otherwise have access to. Why does it need to do more than that?

 

[muffin_of_chaos]

Realized I should move this.

 

[hong]

By giving you options you wouldn't otherwise have access to. Why does it need to do more than that?

Please, let us not go to "tradeoff power for flexibility". It is a funny place.

 

[Zelc]

3.5e example!

I don't see how this is that different from 3.5e Prestige Classing. Say you're deciding between Beguiler 20 and Beguiler 19/Mindbender 1. You're basically paying a bunch of skill points (I'm guessing it's slightly less expensive than a 4e feat) for the ability to switch your bypass SR ability for a telepathy 100' ability. How is that any different than this new multiclassing method?

 

[Green Knight]

The point is, the feat has to increase your effectiveness in some way, ideally at a similar level to other feats. So how is this feat doing that?

By giving you access to abilities which you wouldn't possess otherwise.

Take a Fighter who takes the Novice Power Feat. He can now gain access to the Prismatic Burst spell in place of one of his Encounter Powers. Prismatic Burst is a Burst 2 spell with a range of 20 squares which inflicts Radiant damage and blinds the targets. How will a Fighter possibly get something like this, otherwise?

First of all, even if Fighters have ranged powers, they won't be 20 squares (most likely they'll be associated with throwing weapons). They sure as hell won't be Burst 2. They won't blind the target. And they certainly won't inflict Radiant damage, which is something the Fighter otherwise wouldn't get (and which will make the Fighter exceptionally useful in fights against Undead).

Would the Fighter Attack 13 Power he's replacing probably be awesome? Undoubtedly. But it wouldn't let him do the things he can do with Prismatic Burst. That, to me, is worth a Feat.