Excerpt: Multiclassing (merged)

[Fallen Seraph]

Hmm... Cadfan your post got me thinking, since reminded me of Swashbuckler/Rogue. I wonder if like Daring Outlaw in 3e, if there will be specific feats just to help with certain aspects of multiclassing.

Perhaps feats to bring powers/features down a peg; from per-encounter to at-will, or perhaps, allow a second class feature.

 

[hong]

The phrases "feats, xth level" should be with the prerequisites, not the benefits.

IOW, the prerequisite of "Acolyte Power" should read:

Any class-specific multiclass feats, 8th level.

And the benefit should read:

Swap one utility power with one of multiclass

Ahh, that makes more sense.

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

No cherry picking proficiencies- great.
Not expanding the absolute number of abilities a character has- also good.
Not watering down caster levels- fantastic.
Allowing 1 for 1 swaps of powers- excellent.

All in all, while it is not the same, it is a workable solution. All of the munchkins...excuse me, optimizers...may not like this, but I sure do. It preserves class roles while expanding options. Lessens the impact of the dip, but makes it still a good option. Allows for many varied character concepts, without making the uber-dipper the only good one.

I wonder though, will certain combinations be kinda useless. Like say the wizard who goes multiclass fighter. Marking doesn't seem like a good idea with low hit points. I would assume that they could pick up some armor and weapon proficiencies with some feats, but even toughness would still leave them kinda weak. The other way around seems a little better. Maybe give up a sword attack or two in order to blast some things and use rituals. I don't know what this will all amount to, but they seem to be really encouraging people to mostly stay within role.

Hunters quarry seems particularly nice for any weapon guy, and sneak attack superbe for specific weapons guys. It looks like a warlock that goes multiclass wizard could be pulled off rather nicely. Better armor and more HP than normal wizard, curse, relatively similar type of role (blow things up from range) and adding in the multi-target spells of the wizard along with Rituals. It will be interesting to see how this plays out with the full rules.

 

[hong]

When you buy the swap-power feat, you don't add anything, you just trade powers.
A character with such a feat has, power-wise, one feat less.
You are trading power for concept.

Exactly. I don't see the reason for having to trade power for concept.

 

[Lurker37]

ainatan, I think you're overlooking the increase in options afforded by having a power that lets you do something you otherwise couldn't do.

Take the example of a party without a wizard ( as far as we know, the only controller in the 4E PHB ). The striker multiclasses into wizard , and takes a burst damage spell. Suddenly the striker can clear the room of minions if required.

That may very well be worth the feat and the loss of the swapped-out power.

 

[neceros]

Exactly. I don't see the reason for having to trade power for concept.

You are trading Specialization for Generalization. Remember: no body is forcing you to multiclass.

 

[Scrollreader]

Exactly. I don't see the reason for having to trade power for concept.

You're trading power for /flexibility/ IMO. Rogues don't get Aoe damage, normally. it's not their deal. They're single target DPS, to use MMO terminology. Spending a feat or two to get the ability to lay down level equivalent wizard-Aoe goodness is what you're buying. You're paying for the ability to go outside your role. For being able to bring aspects of another role, as well as the goodies you already have.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Hmmh...

absolutely not impressed...

I am really curious now how you do TWF...

maybe you can do it by default or a feat but you won´t get powes for it...

 

[hong]

Do we know how many feats a character has?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Well, there's a lot of fancy talk there about kicking system mastery in the teeth and making any combination work equally well, but it doesn't look likely to work out that way.

Take the Student of the Sword feat, for instance. If there are a limited number of attack bonus boosting feats--even if many of them are better than Student of the Sword, it's still an obvious power choice for a warrior type. And no matter how often the designers pretend that healing word 1/day is as good as +1 to hit, there are a lot of characters for whom the +1 to hit is going to be a lot better. (Marking, etc, we'll wait and see on, but +1 to hit is an obvious and obviously useful benefit).

Conversely, the power trading feats have a long road to hoe in order to avoid being traps for the unwary. If they work as described in the article, a character who takes a power trading feat gives up a feat and a power to get a power that wouldn't normally be available to him. Now, if everything works as advertised and all powers are equal (no really, I'm trying to be serious here, WotC designers said it, it must be so), then the character who sticks with his ordinary class powers gets a feat and a power but the character who wants to trade simply ends up short a feat in comparison. What is most likely to happen is that there will be a couple powers that are significantly better than other powers (at least for certain types of characters) and that characters who use the power trading feats to gain those powers will be somewhat stronger than they would without the power trading feat. At the same time, players who make more suspect choices will end up with a power that doesn't really help them do anything that needs doing and will have wasted a feat for the privilige of gimping their character like that.

We'll have to wait and see what all comes out of it, but it doesn't look particularly promising to me as a multiclassing system.

In the meantime, I'll note that saying at the same time that the new system does fighter/mages perfectly fine and that it only allows dabbling is complete and utter doublespeak.