Excerpt: Multiclassing (merged)

[Lacyon]

I think the wizard training is a bit unclear - since it allows a power to be used 1/encounter that seems to imply that it follows the other examples and allows an at-will power to be used 1/encounter - and the minion clearance spells tend to be per-encounter or higher rather than at-will.

Scorching burst is an at-will minion-clearing spell for the pregen wizard.

(c.f. the pregen warlock which gets the wizard 'at will' ray of frost as a 'per encounter' power).

It is only with the addition of other feats as you reach higher level that you are able to get the minion-clearing spells.

That's how I read it at the moment, anyhow.

Cheers

I think the pregen warlock just decided that being able to slow a target was for some reason more important than clearing minions.

 

[LordArchaon]

I read through page 5 of the thread... Man, how MANY posts in so little time.

My view is this: you're NEVER EVER going to need more than those 4 feats to be a multiclass of GOOD value. That's because of power retraining. With that last multiclass feat, you're gonna have access to 30th level dailies of the other class once you reach 30th level. Full stop.

The only real drawback is that using feats you really won't be able to gain an at-will power, but I'm pretty sure that's the dominion of the multiclass-instead-of-paragon-path thing.
Or, you could take a paragon path tied to your 2nd class and get some at-will goodness.
These way of giving many options is really enjoyable, even if of course they're made taking into account game balance.

Speaking of game balance, I'm also a little unhappy with the 2 classes limit. They could have expended some more effort in the development process and coming out with a 3 classes limit, where the 2nd actually qualifies for paragon multiclassing or specific paragon paths, while the 3rd always remain confined to multiclass feats, and maybe those not including the final daily, or becoming paragon feats.
For example, you could start as a wizard/warlock (which already seems a lot less powerful than a warlock/wizard), then at paragon tier start to specialize in one of the two, but also start to take another feat chain to gain some ranger powers.

However, great system.

 

[Pinotage]

This SIMPLIFIES the process. Say you're creating a 10th level character. Just take the feat, and pick the best 10th level power you can get. No need to worry about what level you got the feat at.

Simplifies, yes. To the point where it's not really multiclassing. It's just gaining another power unrelated to the class, if you see what I mean. Taking a feat is that gives you another class' power is hardly multiclassing. A fighter with fireball is hardly a multiclassed fighter - he's just like a 3e fighter with a Necklace of Fireballs. Having one or two powers of a class doesn't, IMO, imply multiclassing. I think the only real multiclassing you'll find is in the paragon path. I just wish they'd included that bit rather than this 'thing' they call multiclassing which isn't really at all.

Pinotage

 

[dimonic]

Overall, I like it. It doesn't offer too much, but not too little either.

However, I do I have worry:

Warlord: skill training, inspiring word 1/day.

If Skill Training is a feat, why would anyone take it instead of one of the multiclass feats?

Because you can only have one multiclass feat.

 

[TwoSix]

Not too well. First, you get pigeonholed into a combat role, and now you are limited to acquiring a few powers from one other class. Their "solution" to the multiclassing "problem" was to basically eliminate multiclassing. 4E is a major kick in the pants to diversity and customization. One more reason not to switch.

Neglecting, of course, that in other editions, most classes didn't have that many powers to acquire anyway.

 

[Voss]

Maybe I haven't been following how all this Power stuff works closely enough, but I was thinking of from my own point of view of how I create PCs/NPCs which tends to be organic (how did this person get to be how they are?)

But my initial response to your suggestion was, what if I don't want to give them a 10th level power? What if another fits the idea of the character better?

Then give them a lower level one? You can take any power equal to or less than your current level of the appropriate type.

 

[Green Knight]

Speaking of game balance, I'm also a little unhappy with the 2 classes limit. They could have expended some more effort in the development process and coming out with a 3 classes limit, where the 2nd actually qualifies for paragon multiclassing or specific paragon paths, while the 3rd always remain confined to multiclass feats, and maybe those not including the final daily, or becoming paragon feats.

As I mentioned before, it may very well be possible to multiclass into a third class by trading in the Paragon Path. The two class restriction is only in relation to those four feats and nothing more. It doesn't say anything about applying to multiclassing by trading in a Paragon Path.

In addition, the designers have explicitly mentioned multiclassing three classes. Doubt that would've come up if you couldn't do it.

 

[Voss]

I think the wizard training is a bit unclear - since it allows a power to be used 1/encounter that seems to imply that it follows the other examples and allows an at-will power to be used 1/encounter - and the minion clearance spells tend to be per-encounter or higher rather than at-will.

(c.f. the pregen warlock which gets the wizard 'at will' ray of frost as a 'per encounter' power).

It is only with the addition of other feats as you reach higher level that you are able to get the minion-clearing spells.

That's how I read it at the moment, anyhow.

Cheers

You're reading it based on a singular example with no actual text? Um, OK. A little strange since we don't really know exactly why the half-elf has that power, but sure. But there isn't any reason that stands out as to why she couldn't have scorching burst rather than ray of frost.

 

[Deadstop]

As soon as he mentioned swapping powers he lost me. Don't you think this overcomplicates the process? Esp. when creating characters starting at higher levels?

Power swapping seems to me to make it even easier to create a character who starts at a higher level.

Just give him the appropriate feats and choose some powers from the second class in place of powers from the primary class.

You don't have to worry about when he theoretically would have taken each feat or power, because he always could have retrained feats or swapped lower-level powers for higher-level ones in the meantime. All that matters is what he looks like now.


Deadstop

ETA: Yeah, and of course 3 or 4 other people already made the same comment in the page I hadn't gotten to yet. Sorry.

 

[Kraydak]

...
Everyone justified the 3E multiclassing system by saying "You're giving up power for versatility." Why is it that, all of a sudden, people are claiming that doing so is unfair?

There is a big difference between giving up power for versatility, and giving up power for parlor tricks.

I am getting tired of WotC putting old names on new, unrelated mechanics. 4e "multiclassing" is mechanics for dabbling. 1-3e multiclassing was mechanics for filling *multiple* roles, albeit weaker than a single classed character.