Excerpt: Multiclassing (merged)

[Rechan]

Should be more like:
Make Divinity Magic
Pre-req: spontaneous casting of arcane spells
Benefit: You can choose your spells known from both the divine list

Thats about right, I think?

No, I meant it exaclty how I wrote it.

You have Bob the Cleric. Bob takes the feat. Bob the Cleric can now pick spells off the wizard list of spells in addition to his cleric list of spells.

 

[small pumpkin man]

1) Never saw SW: Saga, so I can't speak to that.

2) I also have no idea what you mean when you say that 3.X multiclassing cut of entire power sources.

3) It isn't more special. Its just different. And how do any of the older forms of multiclassing cut you off from arcane power?

Apparently I wasn't clear, I meant spellcasters were cut off from multiclassing, not the other way around, it's such a big deal it's on the ten commandments of optimization twice. You can make divine multclassed characters, but it often ended up poorly, and multiclassing arcane casters required a lot of splat books to get right. If you have a "multiclassing" system which is supposed to help create characters which are a blend of different classes and it only works with half of the classes in the PHB, you have a system with glaring holes.

Not to say 4e system necessarily does, I'm going to wait to see if you can make a Fighter Wizard that's worth anything. (or any other matchup where the MAD looks to be high.)

 

[Lord Mhoram]

Because you're using a feat! That is the entire point.

Imagine a restaurant scenario. I go in, look at a menu, and order a $10 entree. (I've just picked a power). Now I order a $5 desert. (I just chose a feat).

You go in, look at the menu, see a whole list of $10 entrees, but decide that instead of getting a desert, you'd rather look at a second list of $10 entrees and choose from that.

Well, now we've each got a $10 entree, but I've also got a $5 desert. I clearly got the better deal.

Well to extend the analogy... the menu you have is all beef dishes, and I was really hankering for some seafood. I pay the extra 5 bucks to get access to the seafood. And when I come in next time, I can choose the seafood or the Beef menus and make that change everytime I come in and get a choice (i.e. gain a new power). So I give up desert once, to be able to choose from Seafood or Beef.

 

[Kordeth]

... and one less feat that he could have spent on something else. Opportunity cost is perhaps a subtle concept.

I'm not arguing that multiclassing doesn't cost a feat to expand your options, I'm saying that claiming it costs a feat and a power is fallacious. Of course there's a cost for multiclassing--if there wasn't, there would be very little point to even having a class-based system.

Still, if you want a world where everyone multiclasses, I doubt it would break the game to say that the class-specific multiclass feats simply give you the ability to pick a power from your second class at 4th, 8th, and 10th level. It's just going to encourage lots more multiclassing, whereas the design goal of 4E seems to be "encourage specialization, but allow for flexibility."

 

[Rechan]

Exactly. You didn't type that. That's why what you typed is a bad metaphor. Almost like generic food.

You're not making any damn sense. You're just adding words in for no good reason. What the hell are you talking about?

AND WHY IS ENWORLD SLOW?

 

[Lurker37]

So you're basing your comments on the assumption that powers of the same level will not be balanced. Ok. Fine. That will indeed make the multiclassing feats more useful. I'm not eager to see what those imbalances will do to the rest of the system, though.

This is starting to sound like the hysteria surrounding the expected overpoweredness of the monk class pre 3.0. We all know how that ended.

This excerpt is a marketing exercise. It deliberately raises more questions than it answers, because otherwise no-one would need to buy the rules. As a result, we now have questions we want answers to. Some posters here playtested the rules, so can give informed opinions on some of those answers, but are restricted by NDAs. They've tried to tell us what they can.

A playtester has already stated that the powers are balanced in the context of their original class, but grant more power to other classes when they use a multiclass feat to get them. These cross-class powers are more powerful for the multiclass character cherry picking them because they can grant a tactical option the original class lacks entirely. That granting this without making it cost a feat each pick would result in character more powerful than the single class character, so the feat cost is required to restore the balance. In other words, an original-class power plus a feat adds roughly as much to that class's power as swapping both for a well-chosen power from another class.

Furthermore, we don't know how powerful feats are in 4E. We have reason to suspect that characters may get more of them, but they will be less powerful. We just can't be sure.

And finally all we know about multiclassing instead of taking a Paragon path is that it is possible.

So really, most of us are debating over speculation and guesswork. ( And thoroughly enjoying it... wait - that's not my point! )

So until such time as we have the full ruleset in our hands, our very best indication of how well multiclassing works is the comments of the playtester, and especially his rebuttal of certain assumptions posted here.

I just hope he hasn't gotten himself into trouble for revealing too much.

 

[Spatula]

As a fighter MU he also can't cast in armor (in 2e they have that elven mithril chain exception)

Not sure where you got the idea that elven chain is specific to 2E but it is not. It existed with the same properties in 1e AD&D. I can't speak for BEMCI, though, but it would certainly make some sense there since elves were the only F/MUs.

 

[Kordeth]

Not to say 4e system necessarily does, I'm going to wait to see if you can make a Fighter Wizard that's worth anything. (or any other matchup where the MAD looks to be high.)

Focus on Str and Int, pick a weapon that favors Int (hypothetical, we've seen weapons that favor Con and, I think, Dex), and you should be okay. Int will boost your Ref Def (I love that phrase) and AC if you're in light armor, so Dex isn't too vital. Con would be nice, but Str covers your Fort Def and if you're base fighter you've got decent hp and healing surges. Depending on how useful Wis and Cha are to fighters and wizards, I don't think you're going to be hurting.

 

[hong]

I'm not arguing that multiclassing doesn't cost a feat to expand your options, I'm saying that claiming it costs a feat and a power is fallacious.

You can do this thing in various ways. You can use a feat slot to buy an extra power (feat-power tradeoff). You can use a power slot to grab a power from another class list (straight power tradeoff). Or you can do it the 4E way, which is to use a feat slot _and_ a powerslot to buy a power from another class list. Hence costing a feat and a power.

Of course there's a cost for multiclassing--if there wasn't, there would be very little point to even having a class-based system.

The point of having a class-based system is to provide easy hooks for character generation, and simple party generation. The downside to this is reduced flexibility, if you want to create a character that goes outside the predefined buckets.

The usual methods for increasing flexibility have been to multiclass, or to provide more base classes. The first method is basically gimped in 4E, unless your concept is already fairly close to a predefined bucket. This leaves the second method.

 

[FireLance]

Wrong. If you want to give up the most useful power from your primary class then by all means, do so. It seems pretty obvious that this is in an attempt to stultify the discussion with low-brow, superficial quips. You're completely ignoring the inherent design of emergent complexity within the class features and powers. When coupled with Action Points as a standard feature for Player Characters it allows for power combinations of the likes that characters have never possessed before.

Multiclassing provides characters with access to powers from other sources. Since power sources and character roles are well defined (unlike previous editions where copy n paste was all the rage), a multiclassing character can viably function in multiple roles. Access to alternate power sources and role features is most useful when it fits a character's intended design. This coupled with emergent complexity allows the character to function outside of their original role but not to outperform/outshine a purist (something that 3e couldn't claim).

Let's put it this way. A 4th-level character with a multiclass training feat has one 1st-level encounter power of his primary class and one 3rd-level encounter power of his primary class. If he selects the Novice Power feat, he can either:

1. Replace his 3rd-level encounter power of his primary class with a 3rd-level encounter power of his secondary class; or

2. Replace his 1st-level encounter power of his primary class with a 1st-level encounter power of his secondary class; or

3. Replace his 3rd-level encounter power of his primary class with a 1st-level encounter power of his secondary class.

Given that he has already chosen the 3rd-level and 1st-level encounter powers from his primary class, they can't be too shabby. In fact, they would probably be the powers that the player feels are either most useful or most appropriate to the character. Hence, it is not correct to say that the best power from the seconday class replaces the worst power from the primary class. It is in fact replacing one of the better (if not the best) powers from the primary class.

Now, I do recognize that there is an advantage in gaining a power from another class. What is not clear to me is whether the relative gain in utility is worth a feat (remember, we're replacing the best with the best here). As previously mentioned, I think that one feat for three swaps (replacing the best encounter, utility, and daily powers of the primary class with the best encounter, utility and daily powers of the secondary class) is about right. Alternatively, a single feat could give the player the option to use either of the best powers from his primary or secondary class (i.e. the player selects an encounter power from the seconday class. Once per encounter, he may use that power by spending an encounter power from his primary class of that power's level or lower. So, if he selected a 3rd-level encounter power from his secondary class, he could use it once per encounter by spending his 3rd-level encounter power from his primary class. If he selected a 1st-level encounter power from his secondary class, he can use it once per encounter by spending his 3rd- or 1st-level encounter power from his primary class).

Of course, this assessment is based on what I know of the powers that have been released so far. I'll make a final decision after the rules have been released and I've managed to play around with the system for a while.