Excerpt: Multiclassing (merged)

[Doc_Klueless]

I'm on post 631. This may have been mentioned and then wiped out by all the discussion, or nobody has brought it up yet, but...

I like that by taking the multiclass feat, the character also gets access to all feats that have the second class as a prerequisite. That expansion in feat selection may also have a huge impact on how the character looks and feels. So, it's not just swapping a power; it's also getting access to a whole other bunch of feats the character was previously unable to sample.

I'm not too sure about the power swap. I'll want to see it practice, but I'm swaying towards "liking."

 

[JohnSnow]

A little more bluntly honest than I'm generally supposed to be (and believe me, the self-edit is a harsh master), but...yeah.

Well, I don't have to bear the burden of working for Wizards and worrying about how what I say will reflect on the company. So I can get away with saying stuff like that. As long as I do it in a respectful manner (ENworld's "don't be a jerk" rule).

4E, I'm finding, lets me make the characters I always wanted to, to the degree I want. A rogue with a taste for warlock powers, a warlord with a talent for wizardry, a wizard who can heal. All without giving up my primary role and function in a party, and without taking useless levels in another class and nerfing my primary abilities.

Shiny!

See, to me, it seems that if I'm being honest, there aren't a whole lot of characters (even in fiction) that are as multitalented as people seem to be asking for here. When you have a character who's as tough as a fighter, can cast spells like a wizard, and has the skill set of a rogue, you have what fiction writers call a "Mary Sue." It's a character with no weaknesses to speak of, and it's lame.

For example, it's like wanting to run Star Wars with Han Solo as a Jedi Knight. Quite honestly, I put Cade Skywalker from the new Star Wars comic series into this category. He's a smuggler jedi with a dark past...oh yeah, he's also a Skywalker. Please! Sure, you can do it, but what does a character like that need with a party? It is, to an extent, a problem with Jedi in general. They're so self-sufficient they just wander around kicking butt. As much as I like The Wheel of Time, I wouldn't deny that Rand's a bit of a Mary Sue. But I digress...

Characters, good characters, have strengths and weaknesses. The class system builds those into a D&D character by making them better at some things and worse at others. The oft-quoted 50/50 fighter/wizard or cleric/wizard seems, to me, to be mostly about being able to be a wizard when it's most beneficial to be one and being able to fall back on another, better, role for those times when being a magic-user sucks.

IMO, that's why it's been so hard for people to lay out a character concept that can't be modeled well in this system. Because for the most part, it's not the concept that's taken the hit, it's the game-breaking uber-character.

My two cents. Flame away.

 

[Scipio202]

See, to me, it seems that if I'm being honest, there aren't a whole lot of characters (even in fiction) that are as multitalented as people seem to be asking for here. When you have a character who's as tough as a fighter, can cast spells like a wizard, and has the skill set of a rogue, you have what fiction writers call a "Mary Sue." It's a character with no weaknesses to speak of, and it's lame.

Agreed.

The only ones who (might) need to be that multi-talented would be villains, and they can be created as widely powered as you want with npc/monster creation rules.

 

[jeffhartsell]

Nope, but I thought it was half-elves that got that particular ability (I'm not sure if its racial or not). I was just going off the charts provided in the excerpt.

IIRC the half-elf gets to poach a power from a different class but at a different per use and humans get a bonus at-will power from their current class. So if a human has two classes, can you take an at-will from either class? That will be interesting to find out.

 

[JohnSnow]

Agreed.

The only ones who (might) need to be that multi-talented would be villains, and they can be created as widely powered as you want with npc/monster creation rules.

Villains also tend to be much higher level than the PCs they face, and so can afford to blow a few feats crossing the valley of multi-ineffectiveness. They need this because they tend to be solo types.

That's the thing a lot of people don't get. Just cuz "character X" in a novel is a "true" fighter/wizard doesn't mean that someone with equal experience wouldn't kick his butt (barring uber-powerful magic characters). Very often, we have no idea what "level" fictional characters are.

 

[Mouseferatu]

IIRC the half-elf gets to poach a power from a different class but at a different per use and humans get a bonus at-will power from their current class. So if a human has two classes, can you take an at-will from either class? That will be interesting to find out.

I wouldn't think so, though I haven't looked at the rules to be certain (and probably couldn't say if I did).

Taking the feat doesn't give you a second class. It gives you some very specific and very defined traits of a second class. But you're still a fighter (or whatever), even if you have some wizard powers and qualify for wizard feats and paragon paths.

So no, I'd think that a rule that says "You get another at-will power from your class" wouldn't be applicable to the class for which you took the multiclass feat.

 

[jaldaen]

I like that by taking the multiclass feat, the character also gets access to all feats that have the second class as a prerequisite. That expansion in feat selection may also have a huge impact on how the character looks and feels. So, it's not just swapping a power; it's also getting access to a whole other bunch of feats the character was previously unable to sample.

Yeah I think getting access to not only powers, but class-related feats, paragon paths, and the like is well worth a feat (especially when the gateway "Initiate" feat grants you with Skill Training and an additional power per day or encounter power).

 

[That One Guy]

...I am assuming this is a cleric feat. I am equally assuming that it's entirely possible that there might be cleric feats for divine fortune and turn undead. Of course, those are feats only available to clerics. Except that the article on multiclassing says...

Thanks, that does interest me greatly. I had a, "Ahhh!" moment. Feats are said to be the method to add depth, breadth, or a little bit of both... and that seems to very strongly support that concept. Excellent point. It makes my small fears less afraid, and my hopes a little bit bigger.

 

[2eBladeSinger]

See, to me, it seems that if I'm being honest, there aren't a whole lot of characters (even in fiction) that are as multitalented as people seem to be asking for here. When you have a character who's as tough as a fighter, can cast spells like a wizard, and has the skill set of a rogue, you have what fiction writers call a "Mary Sue." It's a character with no weaknesses to speak of, and it's lame.

Completely agree.

Also (This is my speculation -I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before on the thread) but there are going to be at least 8 power sources, and if trends prevail about 2.75 classes per source. Meaning that by the time all of the power sources are revealed there might be at least 22 core classes. (i.e. there will be a larger core class pool from which to draw for a concept.)

 

[Atlatl Jones]

See, to me, it seems that if I'm being honest, there aren't a whole lot of characters (even in fiction) that are as multitalented as people seem to be asking for here. When you have a character who's as tough as a fighter, can cast spells like a wizard, and has the skill set of a rogue, you have what fiction writers call a "Mary Sue." It's a character with no weaknesses to speak of, and it's lame.

This is generally true, with a couple of exceptions.

The first is when it's a setting where certain skill sets or spellcasting are common skills, and everyone does them to some degree, like in the Vlad Taltos books. In these situations, a house rule is probably the best solution, such as everyone gaining a certain multiclass feat for free which doesn't count against the "one multiclass only" rule.

The other time when this isn't exactly true is when there's an archetype in the setting that, in D&D terms, encompasses multiple classes. Jedi are a good example of then, since in D&D terms they are both powerful defenders and controllers. In such situations, it's probably better to design a whole new class.