Excerpt: powers (merged)

[Fifth Element]

3.0 Whirlwind Attack had no restrictions on extra attacks. It was 3.5 that introduced the restrictions.

Not quite. 3.0 had no explicit restriction on "extra" attacks such as Cleave. IIRC, it said you gave up your "regular" attacks, and this had to be interpreted to mean that you still get your Great Cleave attacks while using Whirlwind Attack in order for the bag of rats trick to work. It was, of course, a silly interpretation. The additional 3.5 wording was intended as a clarification, not a rule change.

 

[Cadfan]

Why is the BoR still even being mentioned after we've been told that the issue is dealt with in the 4E DMG?

Stop beating those dead rats, for all our sakes.

I tell you, the DMG says nothing about a bag of cats.

The issue lives!

 

[Kraydak]

Why is the BoR still even being mentioned after we've been told that the issue is dealt with in the 4E DMG?

Stop beating those dead rats, for all our sakes.

As I noted above, a Pit Fiend w/weenie minions is a form of BoR tactics... The DMG may rail against BoRs, but the MM appears to be condoning them. And that doesn't even begin to get into the complexity of defining a BoR when the BoR's contents are creatures that *are* legitimate targets, elsewhere.

For example, Sunless Citadel *has* an encounter with normal rats. I do hope you wouldn't prevent an fighter w/cleave from using that feat in that encounter; but if you let him, then clearly rats are a possible cleave source...

 

[hong]

As I noted above, a Pit Fiend w/weenie minions is a form of BoR tactics... The DMG may rail against BoRs, but the MM appears to be condoning them. And that doesn't even begin to get into the complexity of defining a BoR when the BoR's contents are creatures that *are* legitimate targets, elsewhere.

For example, Sunless Citadel *has* an encounter with normal rats. I do hope you wouldn't prevent an fighter w/cleave from using that feat in that encounter; but if you let him, then clearly rats are a possible cleave source...

It's very simple. If the target has a red circle around its feet, it's not an instance of bag-of-rats.

 

[Kraydak]

It's very simple. If the target has a red circle around its feet, it's not an instance of bag-of-rats.

There might be wisdom there, but I'm not seeing it. Then again, I consider circle-color to be largely secondary to BoR tactics (unless the ability you want to use requires blue circles, a la Pit Fiend). After all, it only takes one person to turn circles red...

 

[hong]

There might be wisdom there, but I'm not seeing it. Then again, I consider circle-color to be largely secondary to BoR tactics (unless the ability you want to use requires blue circles, a la Pit Fiend). After all, it only takes one person to turn circles red...

It takes two people to turn circles red. The player, and the DM.

 

[Kraydak]

It takes two people to turn circles red. The player, and the DM.

There was a recent, massive thread on the general board that disagrees with you. Of course, it does provide glorious examples of how things can go bad if the players and the DM happen to disagree on the color of the circles... but that is a separate issues.

 

[hong]

There was a recent, massive thread on the general board that disagrees with you. Of course, it does provide glorious examples of how things can go bad if the players and the DM happen to disagree on the color of the circles... but that is a separate issues.

"When in doubt, the DM's definition of reasonableness holds."

 

[Njall]

As I noted above, a Pit Fiend w/weenie minions is a form of BoR tactics... The DMG may rail against BoRs, but the MM appears to be condoning them. And that doesn't even begin to get into the complexity of defining a BoR when the BoR's contents are creatures that *are* legitimate targets, elsewhere.

The Pit Fiend carring around "explosive minions" and the BoR aren't even remotely related, IMO.
The BoR was a rules exploit, that was unbalanced and made no sense ("Hey! As long as I keep killing rats in one hit, I can get an infinite number of cleave attacks on the BBEG! Cool!"), and you didn't even need the rats: as long as a BBEG was surrounded by some low level monsters you could kill in one hit, you could use whirlwind attack and then redirect all of the cleave attacks on him; the Pit Fiend hanging around with a group of minions he can make explode is just like Rambo walking around with a pack of sentient grenades: he uses his minions as a personal guard, and, when they're no longer useful, he uses his influence/magical bond/whatever on them to blow them up ( one at a time ) and damage his foes.
Frankly, I don't even know how you could compare the two...

 

[Stogoe]

I don't see how a Pit Fiend using his actions to a) lose an ally and b) deal damage to an enemy even remotely compares to a player using a roiling sack of fur to get a dozen plus free attacks.