Excerpt: powers (merged)

[Kraydak]

I don't see how a Pit Fiend using his actions to a) lose an ally and b) deal damage to an enemy even remotely compares to a player using a roiling sack of fur to get a dozen plus free attacks.

You don't think that a pit fiend carrying a sack of lemures (even lvl 15 minion lemures) to use as grenades compares?

 

[hong]

You don't think that a pit fiend carrying a sack of lemures (even lvl 15 minion lemures) to use as grenades compares?

A level 15 anything has a red circle around its feet.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

You don't think that a pit fiend carrying a sack of lemures (even lvl 15 minion lemures) to use as grenades compares?

Not at all. I'm not even sure exactly what the stats on a lemure is, but if it is level 15, It likely has some major pluses to hit and a decent AC. 4 lemures are likely to hit as hard as the 1 pit fiend. Not the sort of thing you ignore for long.

 

[Njall]

You don't think that a pit fiend carrying a sack of lemures (even lvl 15 minion lemures) to use as grenades compares?

Not really, since the problem with the BoR was never that PCs looked stupid with all those bags full of living rats they carried around, but that whirlwind + great cleave, under the right circumstances, gave them way more attacks than they were intended to have.
Since the Pit Fiend can only sacrifice 1 lemure/round, this has nothing to do with the BoR.
It was a balance issue, not a flavor issue.

 

[Kraydak]

Not at all. I'm not even sure exactly what the stats on a lemure is, but if it is level 15, It likely has some major pluses to hit and a decent AC. 4 lemures are likely to hit as hard as the 1 pit fiend. Not the sort of thing you ignore for long.

So you wouldn't complain about lvl 26 PCs bagging a bunch of lvl 15 minion lemures and using them as fuel for PC abilities?

 

[hong]

So you wouldn't complain about lvl 26 PCs bagging a bunch of lvl 15 minion lemures and using them as fuel for PC abilities?

Do said lvl 15 lemures have red circles around their feet?

 

[neceros]

What the damn does red and blue circles have to do with anything?

 

[Kraydak]

What the damn does red and blue circles have to do with anything?

Got me. I do hope Hong turns his non-sequitors into insightful gems by explaining.

 

[hong]

Got me. I do hope Hong turns his non-sequitors into insightful gems by explaining.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those with red, blue and green circles around their feet.

There are two kinds of things in the world: those with circles around their feet, and those without.

Rats in bags do not have circles around their feet.

 

[Njall]

What the damn does red and blue circles have to do with anything?

I believe the point Hong's trying to make is that if the "rats" aren't considered hostile, then you can't BoR, and since deciding if something as a rat or a lemure, in this case, is hostile is up to the DM, he could in fact ban the BoR outright by simply deciding that the rats weren't considered "opponents", and thus you couldn't attack them with whirlwind attack and redirect the cleaves, and the same goes for lemures.

Frankly, I don't really think it matters: as long as you were surrounded by lvl 1 goblins or cobolds and you were adjacent to the BBEG, you could technically perform a BoR style trick, that was both unbalanced and made no real sense.