Excerpt: Racial Benefits

[Shado]

Also there comes a drawback of enlarging an AoE: The threat of catching your party in it. That was one of the most frustrating things for me, playing the 4e wizard in a demo: Many times, my party were adjacent to the enemy, so any effect that radiated outwards to adjacent foes (Acid Arrow, Force Orb, Scorching Burst) wasn't usable.

Force Orb is selective.

Enemy only.

"Secondary Target: Each enemy adjacent to the primary target."

It's pretty sweet in a melee mosh pit.

 

[Ulthwithian]

I think that halflings will make better Paladins than Fighters, for a couple reasons.

As pointed out above, halflings can have a generally high AC compared to most characters their level. Let's say that the Halfling has an AC (base) 1 higher than most in his party. If he is the defender, this sounds about right. Now, he gets a +2 when 2 or more people larger than him are around him. Okay, great, now his AC is 3 higher than most other people...

As someone suggested above, this defeats the purpose of marking inasmuch as there is still no disincentive to attack the Fighter instead of the 'squishy'. The Fighter is still making it harder to hit his friends, but he's not taking the damage.

Now, the Paladin has a different marking technique. Attack him or take damage. This can be quite a bit better as an incentive to attack the Paladin rather than one of his friends. Also, if they still choose to attack the Paladin's friends, the Paladin can use LoH to give them a 'free' Healing surge.

Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that Halflings, being Small, might actually get a few damage penalties somewhere along the line. As such, the Paladin's ability to do radiant damage and their relative lack of reliance on their weapon vs. the Fighter should send Halflings in that direction.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Yes, but what effect are the powers that give them that AC trying to represent?

That doesn't really matter. What matters is: can you build a (surprisingly) effective halfling defender? Might they even be more effective than dwarven or human defenders?

Basically, the implementation of the mechanics shouldn't be at odds with the fluff description.

Presumably, the halfling fluff has them being evasive and tricksy, slippery like a fish and reactive like a fly. Hard to pin down and swat.

If they can make very effective fighters and paladins, then their rules (AC bonus) will be at odds with their fluff (scurrying around), because a fighter or a paladin mostly wants to get attacked, while a slippery halfling mostly wants to get away from their attacker.

This might lead to some players going "Buh?" and 4e seeing a lot of halfling defenders, despite the fact that it is at odds with the halfling fluff.

 

[Ulthwithian]

Wait, so being a Defender means you're not allowed to Dodge? How odd. I would hope that there's room in a game for a nimble, dodge-oriented Defender. And if you want to know how he gets the enemy to focus on him, cf. Tasselhoff.

 

[shadowlance]

All AC bonuses are not created equal. They're meant to reflect certain kinds of actios, effects, or skills in certain kinds of situations. Halflings are about "I'm underfoot and quick and hard to hit" which is the antithesis I think of "you shall not pass" of a defender. In other words, just because a race in certain situations can get +AC it does not mean that situation is in harmony with what defenders do. Consider the example of paladins "marking and running" which was technically allowed in the rules but violated the spirit of what they were trying to model.

But how is being adjacent to two or more medium or larger opponents not in harmony with what defenders do? Certainly it's in any defender's interests to try to stand next to multiple opponents.

That actually makes my point for me. If dwarves are iconically more defenderish than halflings (who are more strikerish/thiefly) then it is counter to the spirit of that to say halfling racial powers make them better defenders (from the standpoint of standing up to enemy attacks).

Umm...you seem to be saying that halfling abilities aren't good for defenders simply because halflings aren't traditionally defenders. My point was that the mechanical abilities that they are being given are clearly excellent for defenders and, as a result, they will make great (the best?) defenders EVEN THOUGH traditionally that is not a role that the halfling excels at. Further, this concerns me because I feel that the racial abilities should reinforce the roles that the race traditionally excels at (while still leaving people with the option of making suboptimal choices of race/class combo).

Put another way...you should absolutely be able to make a halfling fighter but the dwarven fighter should be at least as good (imho better actually). With the rules that we have seen thus far, they are turning those assumptions on their head....while leaving the fluff the same. The fact that the fluff hasn't changed makes it seem like these changes are an unanticipated effect of the racial abilities that they have created.

I was hoping that someone could point out that I was wrong and show how the halfling abilities are mechanically inferior for a defender or how the dwarf (or human, or dragonborn) gets some key ability that invalidates the 4ish point AC advantage that the halfling enjoys.

 

[Shado]

4.
1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th level.

That 3.x mind set.

4e, you gain a feat every even level and one at the start of each tier. (1st, 11th and 21st)

Humans presumably still gain a bonus one at 1st. (Along with a bonus At-Will)

Lastly, many old 3.x feats that were "good" are now re-imagined as powers.

 

[Ulthwithian]

Argument #1: Races with a Con bonus have more Healing Surges and more HP, and the Dwarf can Second Wind as a minor action. This is good for any character, but best for a Defender.

I believe your counter-argument to this is that the higher AC of the Halfling is another way to mitigate damage, yes?

Argument #2: (As stated above) A halfling fighter with an AC 4 higher than his compatriots offers monsters no incentive to attack him. Even while marked, they can hit his friends easier than they can hit him. Therefore, half the Defender schtick (having more HPs and more healing surges than the rest of the party) is lost if you play that kind of a Fighter.

Argument #3: Heavy Armor precludes your Dex bonus, IIRC. As such, races with a Dex bonus (such as Halflings) do not benefit as much from heavy armor as races without a Dex bonus.

 

[Torchlyte]

But how is being adjacent to two or more medium or larger opponents not in harmony with what defenders do? Certainly it's in any defender's interests to try to stand next to multiple opponents.



Umm...you seem to be saying that halfling abilities aren't good for defenders simply because halflings aren't traditionally defenders. My point was that the mechanical abilities that they are being given are clearly excellent for defenders and, as a result, they will make great (the best?) defenders EVEN THOUGH traditionally that is not a role that the halfling excels at. Further, this concerns me because I feel that the racial abilities should reinforce the roles that the race traditionally excels at (while still leaving people with the option of making suboptimal choices of race/class combo).

Put another way...you should absolutely be able to make a halfling fighter but the dwarven fighter should be at least as good (imho better actually). With the rules that we have seen thus far, they are turning those assumptions on their head....while leaving the fluff the same. The fact that the fluff hasn't changed makes it seem like these changes are an unanticipated effect of the racial abilities that they have created.

I was hoping that someone could point out that I was wrong and show how the halfling abilities are mechanically inferior for a defender or how the dwarf (or human, or dragonborn) gets some key ability that invalidates the 4ish point AC advantage that the halfling enjoys.

Higher AC is better in almost every role, although this is especially true of melee types. I would say the Halfling racials are excellent for a melee ranger or rogue as well, and so they won't necessarily be pressured towards defender roles.

As for what other classes have to compensate, you just have to look at how (1) Dwarves have better healing surge uses, (2) Dwarves have a Con bonus, (3) Dragonborn have a natural AC bonus, and (4) Dragonborn have a STR bonus. All of these would tend to put Dwarves and Dragonborn in melee roles as well. Humans just do whatever they want.

 

[shadowlance]

Argument #2: (As stated above) A halfling fighter with an AC 4 higher than his compatriots offers monsters no incentive to attack him. Even while marked, they can hit his friends easier than they can hit him. Therefore, half the Defender schtick (having more HPs and more healing surges than the rest of the party) is lost if you play that kind of a Fighter.

Argument #3: Heavy Armor precludes your Dex bonus, IIRC. As such, races with a Dex bonus (such as Halflings) do not benefit as much from heavy armor as races without a Dex bonus.

RE: #2, granting the bad guy a constant -2 to hit (since he keeps attacking other party members) is still a pretty nice bonus (though not as good as eating the attacks yourself).

RE: #3...that's good to hear. I wasn't sure that they were keeping armor/max dex bonus mechanic. That will help a lot (though the size bonus and feat bonus remain a factor)

These are excellent points and will hopefully be enough to make the halfling seem like a sub-optimal choice for the defender. *crosses fingers*

I would say the Halfling racials are excellent for a melee ranger or rogue as well, and so they won't necessarily be pressured towards defender roles.

My concern is not so much that the halfling will be pressured to be a defender as it is that the defender will feel pressure to be a halfling. It may sound like the same thing but it really isn't. In my experience, most players choose class and then race, not race and then class.

Seems like maybe dwarves and dragonborn will make better (the best?) fighters and halflings will make better (the best?) paladins. That would be better than my fear, but I'm hoping that there's something that I'm not seeing that hurts their paladin capabilities.

Have we heard yet what stat other than dex halflings will get? I think Cha is probably most appropriate...but that would certainly ramp up their paladin qualifications substantially.

<---not actually a halfling hater.

 

[katahn]

We're coming at this from two different angles I think, which is fine really. Dodge and other dexterity-related forms of damage avoidance strike me as being at odds with how I'd perceive the iconic defender type. The fact that heavy armor neutralizes dexterity bonuses to armor reinforces that and justifies the idea that feats that grant bonus armor on an avoidance- or dodge-basis would likewise suffer penalties for heavier armor.

In other words, if you're weighed down by heavy armor you really can't scamper and dart between a large-size enemy's legs. If you aren't wearing heavy armor, you start with a much lower base armor class and it becomes a very good question as to whether or not your dexterity/dodge-type bonuses will make up the difference.

It's also a bad idea to assume a defender will "almost always" be up against large size creatures. One of the demo modules involved fighting swarms of small-sized kobolds.