Excerpt: Racial Benefits

[Lizard]

Does it bother anyone else that the halfling is shaping up to be one of the better "defender" choices?

Dex bonus (we don't know this, but it seems a given)
Size bonus (is this going to be in?)
No Str penalty (none of the core races have stat penalties now right?)
Second Chance (force opponent to reroll a hit 1/encounter)
Lost in the crowd (more AC)
Nimble Reaction (more AC vs opp attacks)

That's a lot of AC boosts. I don't have a problem with certain classes meshing up nicely with certain classes (or roles). I think its a good thing in fact. But the iconic halfling certainly isn't a paladin or a fighter.

Anyone care to tell me how wrong I am? Or are we just at the "let's hope that's not how it is in the actual books" stage?

Well, the role of the Defender is to be "sticky", to keep enemies from attacking other people, and none of the halfling abilities really aid here. They don't increase damage or hinder a foe. Indeed, they're almost anti-sticky, because a foe will try to focus on the easier to hit enemies instead of the annoying, bouncing, halfling.

They do help as a low hit point, low armor striker, though, which is the traditional halfling role.

 

[drjones]

edit: damn you internets!

 

[Voss]

Of all the nit-pickey gripes I have seen about 4e this is the only one I can get behind. I have never been a huge dragon nut and these as PCs just screams 'Totally f'ing awesome to the max!!' like they should be chugging mountain dew and jumping out of airplanes with sunglasses on.

Fortunately the fix is incredibly easy. 'Oh the dragon guys, yeah they live on another continent you have just heard stories about them.' If a player really has a stiff for playing one it would have to be a drizzt kinda thing, the ONLY one with all the negative attention that can bring.

I think just saying No is easier.

Alternately, (and this is what I plan to do with the tiefling): rip out all the fluff and description and use the mechanics (maybe slightly tweaked). They're almost perfect for a group in my campaign- a group of humans that are withdrawn and isolated from the rest of the world, and have made numerous pacts with assorted nature spirits (mostly mountain, cold and wind spirits) in order to survive. Tweak the fire to cold resistance and the mechanics are almost perfect, and they aren't a festering walking eyesore any more.

I may do that with the dragonborn, but I may just open the option for gobbos and hobbos instead. Which could work out well, since halflings are getting booted too, useless little wretches that they are.

 

[shadowlance]

Halfling racial bonuses are consistent with "nimble and not trying to be in the way". "Lost in the Crowd" implies trying to run around underfoot to where larger creatures can't get a good swing at you. Being a defender implies standing in something's way and not wanting it to go past you. While it may not explicitly state it in the rules, I'd say the spirit of the rules implies that some of the halfling advantages wouldn't make sense as a defender.

While Lost in the Crowd may imply what you say it does, the mechanic is that being adjacent to two or more medium or larger (since halflings are small) opponents grants +2 AC. This is going to come up a LOT more often for a defender than, say, the dwarven AC bonus feat and is twice the bonus. Spirit of the rules is all well and good...but there's nothing in the feat description which reinforces your interpretation of how it's supposed to work.

They may not be able to use a second wind as a minor action (as an example)...but how many attacks do they have to get missed by that would have hit the dwarf before that is academic?

Hopefully enough of the other races will enjoy bonuses that outweigh all this extra AC that halflings can get.

Well, the role of the Defender is to be "sticky", to keep enemies from attacking other people, and none of the halfling abilities really aid here. They don't increase damage or hinder a foe. Indeed, they're almost anti-sticky, because a foe will try to focus on the easier to hit enemies instead of the annoying, bouncing, halfling.

The defender's role seems to be two fold....make the monster attack you AND survive those attacks. Not much point in making the monster attack you if you can't take the beating. All of these abilities that improve AC increase the halfling's ability to handle being attacked. The implication of the statment "They are almost anti-sticky" is that a good AC is a bad thing for a defender to have...that is clearly not the case.

 

[Wormwood]

If a player really has a stiff for playing one it would have to be a drizzt kinda thing, the ONLY one with all the negative attention that can bring.

Maybe I'm obtuse, but I'm usually happy when a player is excited about the game. I never understood the impulse to shut that enthusiasm down in the interest of my own personal tastes.

 

[katahn]

While Lost in the Crowd may imply what you say it does, the mechanic is that being adjacent to two or more medium or larger (since halflings are small) opponents grants +2 AC. This is going to come up a LOT more often for a defender than, say, the dwarven AC bonus feat and is twice the bonus. Spirit of the rules is all well and good...but there's nothing in the feat description which reinforces your interpretation of how it's supposed to work.

I'll have to make a decision when I read the full fluff text on those halfling racial powers. I'll admit my gut reaction is these powers are meant to reflect "I'm trying to avoid you" rather than "I'm good at dodging you". The former is inconsistent with the defender's "you shall not pass". I'm not 100% convinced it couldn't apply, my final determination will be when I examine that ability's fluff text against the comparable dwarven one since dwarves are much more iconically defenderish than halflings are I think.

They may not be able to use a second wind as a minor action (as an example)...but how many attacks do they have to get missed by that would have hit the dwarf before that is academic?

That actually makes my point for me. If dwarves are iconically more defenderish than halflings (who are more strikerish/thiefly) then it is counter to the spirit of that to say halfling racial powers make them better defenders (from the standpoint of standing up to enemy attacks).

Hopefully enough of the other races will enjoy bonuses that outweigh all this extra AC that halflings can get.

The defender's role seems to be two fold....make the monster attack you AND survive those attacks. Not much point in making the monster attack you if you can't take the beating. All of these abilities that improve AC increase the halfling's ability to handle being attacked. The implication of the statment "They are almost anti-sticky" is that a good AC is a bad thing for a defender to have...that is clearly not the case.

All AC bonuses are not created equal. They're meant to reflect certain kinds of actios, effects, or skills in certain kinds of situations. Halflings are about "I'm underfoot and quick and hard to hit" which is the antithesis I think of "you shall not pass" of a defender. In other words, just because a race in certain situations can get +AC it does not mean that situation is in harmony with what defenders do. Consider the example of paladins "marking and running" which was technically allowed in the rules but violated the spirit of what they were trying to model.

 

[Lizard]

The defender's role seems to be two fold....make the monster attack you AND survive those attacks. Not much point in making the monster attack you if you can't take the beating. All of these abilities that improve AC increase the halfling's ability to handle being attacked. The implication of the statment "They are almost anti-sticky" is that a good AC is a bad thing for a defender to have...that is clearly not the case.

It's a bad thing to have if another, lower AC target, is around and the foe is intelligent. From what we've seen, a good chunk of fighter and paladin powers focus on making the decision to attack someone else bad -- either because it damages the target or exposes the target to additional attacks. If there's no penalty for NOT attacking the high-AC halfling...and there's other targets -- why risk wasting an attack that is more likely to miss? While there's obviously a lot of other factors, given that each PCs contribution to combat is roughly equal, from the enemy's perspective, taking out any one is as good as another, since the party is equally weakened by the death of any member. Thus, a focus, if possible, on the easiest targets. Defender powers are designed to counter this by making such a focus a more tactically challenging decision. The less 'tempting' a defender is, the more likely the tactical balance swings the other way.

At least, that's my interpretation. It may well be that halflings in 4e are very good as defenders, but my mind +AC without any +damage or special attacks spells 'striker' -- in close and protected mostly by not being hit.

 

[DonAdam]

'Oh the dragon guys, yeah they live on another continent you have just heard stories about them.' If a player really has a stiff for playing one it would have to be a drizzt kinda thing, the ONLY one with all the negative attention that can bring.

Exactly. I don't mind the PC being something special, but I don't want inns looking like the Mos Eisley Cantina.

 

[I'm A Banana]

All AC bonuses are not created equal.

You two seem to be talking at cross-purposes.

The idea is: Do halflings make good Fighters and Paladins, based on their mechanics?

A high AC seems to indicate that they do.

The fluff isn't very key for this, the key is: can they function (surprisingly) well in a role that you really would think they wouldn't be very good for?

Isn't one of the pregens a halfling paladin?

Methinks halfling defenders will be a common choice in 4e...perhaps counter-intuitively.

 

[katahn]

You two seem to be talking at cross-purposes.

The idea is: Do halflings make good Fighters and Paladins, based on their mechanics?

A high AC seems to indicate that they do.

The fluff isn't very key for this, the key is: can they function (surprisingly) well in a role that you really would think they wouldn't be very good for?

Isn't one of the pregens a halfling paladin?

Methinks halfling defenders will be a common choice in 4e...perhaps counter-intuitively.

Yes, but what effect are the powers that give them that AC trying to represent? Remember the original rules minus fluff supported the idea of a paladin using divine challenge on a target and then trying to keep away/run away from the thing they challenged. The spirit of the paladin ability was supposed to be "Hey ugly, come here and hurt me" combined with them standing there waiting for said ugly to try it. The "damage" was more them being dispirited and demoralized by the paladin's divine challenge than actual harming of their body, which didn't make sense if the paladin was running away.

Similarly, halfling AC bonuses are apparently predicated on "I'm underfoot, I'm quick and nimble, I'm trying to get out of your way" whereas a defender is "I'm in your face, I'm solid and you are not getting past me." So just like a paladin can't "mark and run" it seems to me that the halfling AC bonuses are not in the spirit of a defender type. At the very least, "Lost Underfoot" wouldn't be, the others I'll have to look at.

The fluff text of an ability is more than just a cute little description for game mechanics. The fluff describes what the ability is supposed to represent and how it functions, the game mechanics are merely a best effort at modelling that fluff text in measurable form. Basically, the implementation of the mechanics shouldn't be at odds with the fluff description.