Excerpt: Racial Benefits

[Ahglock]

Not necessarily. Cha is a dump stat for fighters (Wis is more useful to them), so you have to decide whether the human's other bonuses--an extra feat, an extra skill, an extra at-will power (the only way we know of to get one of those), and +1 to all defenses, are worth the stuff you get for being a dragonborn (breath weapon, Dragonborn Fury, Draconic Heritage, and +2 to two skills).

I think WotC realized exactly what you're getting at, which is why they gave humans a blanket +1 to all defenses. Unless you really want the crazy Reflex defense of a halfing (+1 racial, +1 dex), a human remains a viable choice.

As pointed out in another reply to this in a point buy every bonus is useful even ones to dump stats. Even if you want to dump chr to the 8 stat point rewrite my example to be a powerful rogue or powerful warlord instead of powerful fighter. Now both +2str and +2 chr are non-dump stats for the class.

The human feats really don't look better than the demi-human feats, so it seems to me no matter what class you choose the best choice will always be not human. I hope there is something more to this that I haven't seen yet, but when you have uneven bonuses it is hard to balance things. Also going back to the dragonborn, bonuses like breath weapon are much harder to quantify than a +1 to AC so this race in particualr I will be looking at closely to see if it is balanced.

 

[Cadfan]

In general, everyone agrees with the idea that a player's character concept, if reasonable, should be worked into the game, but that character concepts which do not plausibly fit into the campaign world should be disallowed.

The problem is the application of those ideas. Everyone agrees with them, but some people have very, very different ideas about what is "reasonable."

 

[Spatula]

A) True enough, but sometimes as a DM you'll have a better time if players enjoy their options. This point isn't black and white.

Um, that's why I said that both DM and player should be able to meet each other halfway?

B) Players have to please a DM to some extent, but the DM has to please players as well. I would say the DM has to try harder than the players to please the other party.

As long as the DM is doing the bulk of the work in making the game possible, I disagree. If someone doesn't like it, they can DM instead. The DM sacrifices his or her free time to prepare for the game, players do not.

C) As long as crash-landed space marines aren't Core, this point is too far removed from the norm to be valid.

Are you implying that your mind is SO limited and boxed in you can't fit within the confines of society some crash landed space marines or space elves? Why do you insult your own creativity and vision in such a way?

Ah, the tyranny of the published word. What is acceptable in a fantasy game is not defined by what WotC publishes. By your logic, dragonborn were not acceptable in 3e (since they weren't core, or didn't even exist for that matter), but they are in 4e?

 

[MindWanderer]

As pointed out in another reply to this in a point buy every bonus is useful even ones to dump stats. Even if you want to dump chr to the 8 stat point rewrite my example to be a powerful rogue or powerful warlord instead of powerful fighter. Now both +2str and +2 chr are non-dump stats for the class.

Wait--so because humans aren't at least as good as every race at every class, they're getting short-changed? Sure, dragonborn is a natural choice for paladin or warlord, because they both need Str and Cha. It's probably a decent choice for rogue, depending on how the various Brawny/Trickster powers are designed, because both Str and Cha are secondary for them (although I think +2 Dex vs. +2 Str and +2 Cha is a toss-up). Similarly, halflings have a huge advantage in being Trickster rogues, elves in being Archery rangers, and so on. And yes, if you're a power optimizer, those are going to be tempting choices, just like gray elf is an absurdly popular choice for wizards.

But because humans get a +1 to all defenses, the loss of a second +2 means that unless you're comparing them with a race that gets perfect synergy with the class in question, they're just as viable stat-wise. Perhaps more so--for instance, an elf Trickster rogue gets a ton of mileage from the +2 Dex, but the +2 Wis is almost useless to them because their Cha is going to be higher. Meanwhile, you're comparing the human's +1 Fort and Will, extra feat and skill, and extra at-will power to the elf's +1 speed, skill bonuses, bow proficiency, and Wild Step. I think that's an even comparison at least.

 

[Rechan]

Why on earth would the way I envision my gamewolrd be offensive?

It has zero to do with your gameworld, and everything to do with you saying this:

If a player really has a stiff for playing one it would have to be a drizzt kinda thing, the ONLY one with all the negative attention that can bring.

You are saying the only reason anyone would ever want to play Race X is because it "would have to be a drizzt kinda thing".

Please explain how that has anything to do with your game world, and how it ISN'T a blanket statement about people who like any race you Don't?

Here's a simple answer: Someone would have a stiff for playing one because it's in the freaking Core Rulebook.

 

[Piratecat]

Here's a simple answer: Someone would have a stiff for playing one because it's in the freaking Core Rulebook.

An excellent point. But just a preemptive reminder, gang - even if you don't agree with another poster, don't let the discussion turn to insults. Thanks.

 

[Kordeth]

You are saying the only reason anyone would ever want to play Race X is because it "would have to be a drizzt kinda thing".

Please explain how that has anything to do with your game world, and how it ISN'T a blanket statement about people who like any race you Don't?

Here's a simple answer: Someone would have a stiff for playing one because it's in the freaking Core Rulebook.

Erm--pretty sure you're misunderstanding here. He's not saying "anyone who wants to play race X is indulging in Drizzt fanboy-wank and is badwrongfun," he's saying that "if a player wants to play a member of race X, I'd allow it, but the character would, like Drizzt, be the only one of his kind (e.g. the only heroic member of that race, or even the only one of his race known in the world period), with all the drawbacks that come along with that (e.g. people assuming he's a monster or villain, or reacting with fear and shock, or making it easier for enemies to track him because everybody remembers the dragonman)."

Nothing about that implies a statement about people who like races he doesn't, blanket or otherwise, and in fact it seems like a perfectly valid compromise between a player who really wants to play race X and a DM who really doesn't want race X to be a major part of his campaign world.

 

[Rechan]

Erm--pretty sure you're misunderstanding here. He's not saying "anyone who wants to play race X is indulging in Drizzt fanboy-wank and is badwrongfun," he's saying that "if a player wants to play a member of race X, I'd allow it, but the character would, like Drizzt, be the only one of his kind (e.g. the only heroic member of that race, or even the only one of his race known in the world period), with all the drawbacks that come along with that (e.g. people assuming he's a monster or villain, or reacting with fear and shock, or making it easier for enemies to track him because everybody remembers the dragonman)."

Oh.

If that's what he means, then I apologize.

 

[Spatula]

It has zero to do with your gameworld, and everything to do with you saying this:

If a player really has a stiff for playing one it would have to be a drizzt kinda thing, the ONLY one with all the negative attention that can bring.

You are saying the only reason anyone would ever want to play Race X is because it "would have to be a drizzt kinda thing".

Please explain how that has anything to do with your game world, and how it ISN'T a blanket statement about people who like any race you Don't?

Hm? He says "if someone wants to play one, it'll be like Drizzt, the only member of that race around, with all the negative attention that brings." He's talking about his gameworld where dragonborn would be treated like drow are in most settings - as enemies of "civilized" folk. How is that a blanket statement?

 

[Falling Icicle]

Here's a simple answer: Someone would have a stiff for playing one because it's in the freaking Core Rulebook.

This is exactly why some people have been complaining about Tieflings and Dragonborn being in the PHB. Not everyone wants those kinds of exotic races to be typical player characters in their games, but since they're core races in the PHB, the DM is a dick if he doesn't allow them in his campaign.