Excerpt: Racial Benefits

[ProfessorCirno]

Hmmm. Some of these are (very obviously) more powerful then others. But my primary worry is the "feel" for races making them TOO good for various classes.

One of my gripes with 3e was how some races almost PUNISHED you for making different classes, and not in obvious ways such as "Well, half orcs aren't that awesome at wizards," but by just making other classes so obscenely good at them. Or races that were just bad at everything (I'm looking at you half elves), not from lower stats, but from exclusion of higher ones.

Tiefling is starting to feel a bit too much like "Warlocks: the Race," and I have the (albeit possibly unfounded) worry that a, say, human warlock will be trailing far behind a tiefling one.

 

[ShockMeSane]

It probably has to with the much lower damage/HP ratio and the desire to make monsters useful across a wider range of levels. More AC means weaker monsters become ineffectual faster. And since characters are tougher in general, too much defense stacking has a multiplying effect.

This. Also, if you notice in the Paragon preview there was basically a +1 AC feat (with +1 to offset skillcheck penalty or something). Obviously from a balancing perspective WotC is valueing AC pretty significantly. But then, since everyone gets +1 AC every two levels, I suppose that makes it significantly easier to balance, i.e. +1 AC = 2 extra levels worth of AC. A Dwarf with the racial and the armor feat would effectively be 4 levels higher (fighting large+) defensively than someone who didn't take those feats.

With the increased length (combat rounds wise) of battle in 4E, I predict AC bonuses will be significantly more useful.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Hmmm. Some of these are (very obviously) more powerful then others. But my primary worry is the "feel" for races making them TOO good for various classes.

One of my gripes with 3e was how some races almost PUNISHED you for making different classes, and not in obvious ways such as "Well, half orcs aren't that awesome at wizards," but by just making other classes so obscenely good at them. Or races that were just bad at everything (I'm looking at you half elves), not from lower stats, but from exclusion of higher ones.

Tiefling is starting to feel a bit too much like "Warlocks: the Race," and I have the (albeit possibly unfounded) worry that a, say, human warlock will be trailing far behind a tiefling one.

Well you figure you still have to pick these feats, so you can always choose instead another feat that works better for your class.

 

[muffin_of_chaos]

Feats seem rather overemphasized for having only 3 by fifth level (albeit 5 if you're a Human Ranger it seems), considering the massive number of them to choose from it sounds like there'll be. Unless I missed something and counted wrong.
I guess there'll be a lot of the more obviously powerful feats they'll do away with (Quick Draw comes to mind) so that you don't feel you're required to take some from the get-go.
And mayhap feat retraining will help out the feeling of being pigeonholed. Or maybe it's just how it is.

 

[ShockMeSane]

So many situational modifiers...

I do believe that this might be a legitimate concern, especially considering these are just situational modifiers you can get by level 10. OTOH, as another poster mentioned, when you pick a feat you tend to remember it much more easily than something passively acquired. Fighter's dont forget their cleaves or power attacks often.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I do believe that this might be a legitimate concern, especially considering these are just situational modifiers you can get by level 10. OTOH, as another poster mentioned, when you pick a feat you tend to remember it much more easily than something passively acquired. Fighter's dont forget their cleaves or power attacks often.

Is definitely a legitmate concern. We know the problems from 3E.

There are a few difference
Compare the Dwarf AC and Reflex Bonus to Dodge.
- Dodge granted you a +1 bonus to AC against one foe. You had to declare the foe on your turn. I think two factors caused the problems of this feat: The benefit was small, you had to conciously declare against who you would use it, and you had to remember it several minutes later, when the monster attacked you.
- Dwarf AC and Reflex Bonus is as small as the Dodge bonus, but you only have one condition to look at: Is the attacker larger then me. That sounds a lot easier to do to me.

Marks are a little closer to Dodge in that regard. But the bonus is higher, and you do it automatically with your attack. You'll usually remember who you have attacked in the past.
There might also be a difference because the marker is always the one that stays close to the enemies - the Defender. A Rogue with Dodge used to tumble around a lot, and sometimes sneak attacked a different target then the one he dodged.

 

[ShockMeSane]

Tiefling is starting to feel a bit too much like "Warlocks: the Race," and I have the (albeit possibly unfounded) worry that a, say, human warlock will be trailing far behind a tiefling one.

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. Tieflings get a +2 CHA, but it looks pretty likely that Humans can get a +2 in any stat they choose, so this isn't going to be hugely problematic. Bloodhunt is kind of nice, but really no nicer for a Warlock than any other class.

Which leads me to believe that you are pretty much basing your argument of Tiefling superiority on Infernal Wrath, which even at 30 CHA is what, a+1 to hit and a POSSIBLE +10 damage to one attack with a situational stipulation in one encounter. I mean, it certainly isn't so powerful that adding an extra push1 element to it is going to leave your Human counterpart in the dust. I'll admit the Fire Resist is situationally quite powerful, but it doesn't have any extra Warlock synergy that I've noticed.

But Humans get +1 to all defenses, an additional at-will power, an extra feat and an extra trained skill, the latter of which is probably a wash with the Tieflings +2 INT. They can also get Action Surge, which grants them +3 to hit on their most important attack, which I would argue is better than Infernal Wrath in any scenario.

I mean, I'm not trying to say the human is decisively better either, but I'm just not sure that the decision is even an easy one mechanically, let alone obvious.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I find it interesting that Action Surge is a human feat. Tira, the half-elf warlock demo character has that feat. Unless something's changed, this means that half-elves can take human feats.

 

[ShockMeSane]

Maybe they get to choose which race they are a Half-Elf with. Dragonborn-Elf ftw? heh.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I find it interesting that Action Surge is a human feat. Tira, the half-elf warlock demo character has that feat. Unless something's changed, this means that half-elves can take human feats.

That would be quite neat actually, it could show how much more a Half-Elf or any half-breed takes after one parent or the other.