Excerpts: Angels

[AllisterH]

A ritual?

Didn't the excerpt from the devils article explicitly mention that the other gods cursed them and gave them those forms?

 

[hamishspence]

Summon Angel ritual

I can live with a Summon Angel ritual, just as long as it doesn't involve these words:
"Hail, hail, fire and snow,
Call the angel, we will go,
Far away, far to see
Friendly angel, come to me"

 

[katahn]

Didn't the excerpt from the devils article explicitly mention that the other gods cursed them and gave them those forms?

I would think that as much as the gods might dislike each other, particularly when their portfolios and interests come into conflict, that the one thing they'd like even less is the idea of any of their servants getting the idea that rebelling against them is a good idea; or worse that killing them might be a good idea.

However powerful the angels are, the gods are stronger, and as much as Bahumut and Bane might despise each other the one thing they would probably agree on is that treason and deicide need to be punished. So collectively the pantheon strikes down the leader of the rebelling angels (Asmodeus) and his troops and they become the devils and are as securely locked into the realm of the fallen god as the collective might of the pantheon can make them.

In the time that passes, Asmodeus finds a way to unite with the new hells and becomes a god himself (perhaps that was his grand plan all along, who knows - "Better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven" after all). However, even as a god himself the locks and barriers placed by the collective divine might of multiple gods are still too strong, and none of the other gods is particularly happy about the presence of the new god... After all, not only does it show deicide is possible, but it shows that one can become a god by doing so.

As for the shift to making angels a race native to the astral sea, it would explain why the angels serving Bahumut are basically the same (mechanically speaking) as the ones serving all the other gods. If the angels were created by the gods then you'd need MM entries for each god and every type of angelic being they have working for them. The easier solution is to make them a single race, and from that allow players to extrapolate what sort of epic-level divine politics might be going on.

 

[hamishspence]

Mercenary, check, neutral, check, Wings, check, no legs, check. Aside from the facelessness, they make me think a lot of the Concordant Killer from MM4. is it likely that this was the prototype for the 4th ed Angel?

 

[Jer]

I'm wondering why they decided to change angels from being created by the gods, to having an independent origin.

My guess is that it gives them a reason to all look similar when you've got the miniatures sitting out on the table. If each god made her own angels, you'd expect them to reflect the personality of the particular god who made them. But if they're a side-effect of creation, or echoes of the Astral Sea, then there's a reason why both the God of Fire, the God of Vengeance, and the God of Snuggly Teddy Bears might make use of Angels of Valor that look similar to each other. Not necessarily a great reason, but one that I could see the designers deciding was reason enough to make the switch for the default write-up in the MM. It seems like something that would be easy enough to change, though, as it would mostly affect story-level things not combat stats.

 

[hamishspence]

the Pact Primeval story

How much of FC2, Pact Primeval story is going to get chucked? now we have a suggestion that the angels are at least as old as the deities, plus a gods vs primordials war, maybe the whole "Asmodeus was the best of the angels" theme could be kept. Or is it more likely that the whole story will be subsumed into the new "Asmodeus murdered a deity and was punished for it" theme of 4th ed. I am hoping at least some of the story gets kept.

 

[Danzauker]

Hey, it worked for Star Wars.

And Tron.

I want my color-coded +5 vorpal identity disk of returning!!

 

[Lizard]

I'm in favor. This allows the angels to be used in a wider variety of roles. You can still have your good holy nice angels fighting against demons. Pelor's angels are likely like this. But you can also have an evil priest summon an angel of death to slaughter an enemy's kingdom-- your own-- and you need to stop it. For a dramatic twist, possibly by summoning a devil and making a bargain, which will go wrong afterwards...

.

Nope, sorry. To me, this confirms my fear of AngelTemps, Inc, where out-of-work angels go to pick up their next assignments.

"OK, Bluggorth the Destroyer, Devourer Of Babies and Kittens, needs angels of vengeance, two of 'em, we got any Vengeance angels? Calling for vengeance angels..."

"I'm a vengeance angel! Me! Me!"

"OK, OK, settle down kid. Lemme see...you worked for Celestia, Goddess Of Light And Puppy Dogs, last month, right?"

"Yes! You'll see she personally wrote 'Excellent performance -- would hire to smite unworthy again' on my report card."

"Yeah, yeah. But, uh, Bluggorth, he's going to be sending you after, uh, Lord Valour the Just, who apparently destroyed one of Bluggorth's cults last week. You, uhm, gonna have any problems with vengifying a paladin? 'Cause I don't want to deal with whines from Bluggorth, he's a prat."

"No, no, I'll smite anyone, anywhere. It's all about the smiting for me. I'm a smiter!"

"Sigh. Well, it's a rush order. I guess you'll do. His dominion is just past the nine hells, turn left at the corpse of the dead god, go pick up your assignment. And remember, you're on the clock, no overtime, so make it snappy."

(For best effect, read the angel as having the voice of the gnome from the 4e cartoons.)

 

[Dragonblade]

The whole angel thing is one of the few fluff changes that 4e made that I'm not really on board with. I understand why they did it. Even evil deities should have some kind of divine servant. But to me "Angels" should always be champions of good. I personally don't think heroic PCs should ever have to fear angel's appearing. I will probably house rule the name or something and keep the stats. I'll have to think about it.

 

[Novem5er]

I think some people are over-playing the mercenary thing. I don't believe angels are these neutral beings who only serve their god as long as he/she/it is the highest payer (astral diamonds?!). I take it that the angels are defined by their basic role (valor, vengeance, etc), but that different groups of angels were attracted to different gods. Otherwise, what makes an Angel of Vengeance serve Hextor over Pelor? Does Hextor pay better? But then why wouldn't all of Pelor's angels switch sides? THAT'S the impression I usually get when I hear talk about mercenaries.

I think WotC means something different. I think they used the word mercenary to clearly state that the angels are NOT robots, and only serve their chosen god as long as that god sticks to the portfolio that attracted the angel in the first place.

Gruumsh has a host of angel servants that CHOSE to serve him during his battle with the primordials. Those angels chose him (valor, vengeance, et all) because they were called to his strength through battle, his lack of mercy, and his distaste for the weak. His angels serve him only so long as Gruumsh sticks to those virtues. If Gruumsh one day realized that his bloodthirsty theology was slowly destroying his chosen worshipers (orcs), and told his worshipers to now show strength through mercy and patience... well, all of Gruumsh's angels might have a problem with that.

If you look at this way, two roleplaying possibilities come up:

1. Angels ARE different between the gods. Perhaps they take on visual aspects of their chosen god, different colors and details. If the party broke open a tomb, which summoned a guardian Angel of Valor serving Pelor, perhaps the party could parley and walk away (Forgive us, we didn't know this tomb was sacred to Pelor). However, if that same tomb was sacred to Gruumsh, it would immediately be time of Initiative!

2. Do angels serve the gods... or do the gods serve the angels? What if a god wanted to dramatically change their portfolio? What if a god was somehow tricked into betraying their own values? I think a god without angels would be nearly powerless to exert direct influence across the planes. How's that for a story... Pelor is tricked by Vecna into punishing an innocent being (less god, epic level hero?). Pelor realizes his mistake, but his godful pride does not allow him to admit it and take action against Vecna. As a result, Pelor's angels walk away, leaving Pelor's Domain open for attack. The party's mission? Defend Pelor's Astral Domain from assault by Hextor while simultaneously working to get his angels back on his side.

Good luck!