Excerpts: Angels

[DandD]

It makes sense to list it separately so that the DM will roll it separately so that it's easier to determine how much cold and/or fire damage is negated by cold and/or fire resistance. If you tell your players that they've received 23 points of cold and fire damage, and some of them happen to have cold and/or fire resistance, they're going to want to know how much of that damage was cold energy and how much of it was fire and since you didn't roll it separately, you're going to be left saying, "Um ... uh, half was cold and half was fire? So let's just divide the number I rolled by two ... um, hang on ... it was an odd number so let's round down ... um ..."

It's absolutely simple, as it was explained in the tiers-excerpt. The first energy-type gets rounded up, the other is rounded down. In the end, you don't have to track anything, and if the players do have energy resistance to both type, it wouldn't matter anyway. Like I said, they could have done it easier, and made it abstractly, seeing as both energy types do equal damage anyway, they just didn't. It would make sense to roll the damage separately if Cold Damage were rolled with another die, like a d12, and the Fire Damage had to be done with a d6 or so.
I know that when I'm going to moderate a game, I will do exactly that. Simply say it does 2d8+18 energy damage (Cold/Fire) and let the players handle the resistances. I know that I can trust my friends at the table.

Rolling separately should only then be done if the damage dices were different. But if they're the same, just roll them together, for ease of play.

 

[Delgar]

Ok, but not great. And whatever happened to allies? Not all the time, but some times allies can be a good thing.

Nothing says that these can't be allies?

 

[TheLordWinter]

I must also say that I think it is a bit odd that Angels are given such a strong elemental focus. There is no possible way to argue that Archons are "elemental angels" anymore when basic Angels are wreathed in fire or ice.

Actually... Angels and Archons look way too much like each other, and they might be even more similar to each other than they were in 3E.

I think that quite frankly this makes for an incredibly interesting plot hook. Where do angels come from, and why are they so similar to the Primordials, the enemies of the Gods? Is this elemental similarity in fact tied to some deeper conspiracy, perhaps lead by Asmodeus himself?

Might the players be involved and about to solve the riddle when Asmodeus reveals his grand plan, that he has insinuated angelic forces throughout the forces of the Gods, and in one fell swoop the Gods fall?

How then, will the PCs deal with the World when all divine magic suddenly falters?

 

[Irda Ranger]

I like the mercenary bent, others probably won't.

I hate it.

But it makes sense there would be some loyalty but also the chance for rebellion and such and so aren't mindless automatons as some thought.

No, no, no. Utter crap. The idea of Rebellion should be utterly incomprehensible to Angels (which is why Asmodeus is so unique and evil). Angels should be the relentless, no-questions-asked, agents of their God's will.

I'm wondering why they decided to change angels from being created by the gods, to having an independent origin.

Me too, as in "What were they thinking?" Bad change.

I would be fine with Angels being "The needs of the Gods wrapped in the Astral Matter, given form.", so that Angels are some combination of Divine Will and Astral Matter, but there needs to be the Divine Will part. That's what truly sets them apart from Eladrin and Demons. As written now Angels are just one more kind of Outsider.

Also: I suspect that they changed angels from manifestations of a god's will to superpowered astral race, is so that people can summon them without getting into metaphysical arguments about what their deity wants, who's calling the shots, etc.

I find this unsatisfactory. Not everything needs to be summonable.

My preference would be that (1) you can't summon them, (2) you can, but a God may ask why, or (3) say "When you use the Summon Angel spell a new Angel is created from the Astral Matter to serve you, just as the Gods created hosts of Angels to serve them."

Of course, unlike the God's Angels, yours doesn't stick around very long.

People are worrying too much about the part of this statement that pertains to wealth. They seem to be missing the last part about "cause worthy of their attention."

I'm not. It just bugs the hell out of me that bribing Angels with money is even an option.

 

[Voss]

As for the shift to making angels a race native to the astral sea, it would explain why the angels serving Bahumut are basically the same (mechanically speaking) as the ones serving all the other gods. If the angels were created by the gods then you'd need MM entries for each god and every type of angelic being they have working for them. The easier solution is to make them a single race, and from that allow players to extrapolate what sort of epic-level divine politics might be going on.

Eh. Not really. The gods could have collectively willed them into existence for the 'war against the primordials' trope, and then divvied up the survivors after the war. As generic as that would be, its better than the 'rent-an-angel' fluff.


@Thelordwinter- thats one way to look at it. The other way is that there are now far too many elemental beings wandering about, and to the casual player, they're almost indistinguishable. I don't mind the new art (though I'll miss the Bald and Beautiful Planetar), but the fact that they're only distinguishable from archons because they have wings on is greatly annoying. Add in that they aren't distinguishable from each other without almost a prefect recall of the MM and you've got some boring monsters. I can easily see the players arguing about whether what they're facing Is the lightning angel or the 'frostfire' angel, which isn't exactly the recipe for a memorable encounter.

 

[Derren]

The idea of Rebellion should be utterly incomprehensible to Angels (which is why Asmodeus is so unique and evil).

That is a good point. The devils are perverted angels which killed the deity they served, but when angels are just mercenaries why was this act so evil to turn them into devils?

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

I'm not. It just bugs the hell out of me that bribing Angels with money is even an option.

Being mercenary does not necessarily equal bribable with money.

 

[med stud]

I don't think the mercenary angle has to have any effect on an individual game. The angels serve gods for whatever reasons and there is reason to believe that they are loyal when they are encountered by PCs. Their "contracts" could last for millenia for all we know.

I think they are mercenaries in the same sense that modern soldiers are mercenaries; few people would be soldiers if they weren't payed for it. They still can be very loyal to the country they are serving. In the angel's case, the "pay" could be that they can promote the ideal/agenda that they like. I also think that the reason behind that comment is that angels aren't extensions of their deity's will, if the deity steps out of line, he or she will be left by his or her angels.

I don't think bands of angels will rove around the Astral Sea looking for an employer. The Asmodeus- case shows that angels make bad leaders for themselves (that, and the rebellion ).

IMC, if a god gets slain the angels will just disappear into the energy from where they came. The gods don't create the angels, but they do give them form. An angel without a master is a diffuse entity of energy without an identity. When a god comes into existance, entitys of the same persuasion shape into angels. If the god dies or changes those entities won't follow that god anymore. The interesting thing then is Hell; what happened there? Instead of being cursed by the gods, the devils is the self defense of the egos of the fallen angels. Not being content with being followers anymore, the angels under the command of Asmodeus wanted to lead. When their god died, they reshaped their minds and bodies into what is now devils. Then the nature of the universe made their leader a god and the follower nature of the former angels made the devils into a very organized and hierarchical species, now forever condemned to their own realm.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Eh. Not really. The gods could have collectively willed them into existence for the 'war against the primordials' trope, and then divvied up the survivors after the war. As generic as that would be, its better than the 'rent-an-angel' fluff.


@Thelordwinter- thats one way to look at it. The other way is that there are now far too many elemental beings wandering about, and to the casual player, they're almost indistinguishable. I don't mind the new art (though I'll miss the Bald and Beautiful Planetar), but the fact that they're only distinguishable from archons because they have wings on is greatly annoying. Add in that they aren't distinguishable from each other without almost a prefect recall of the MM and you've got some boring monsters. I can easily see the players arguing about whether what they're facing Is the lightning angel or the 'frostfire' angel, which isn't exactly the recipe for a memorable encounter.

You know, I think names like Planetar, Solar, or Deva are just to got to be "lost" in 4E. I suspect they will return, with a new purpose. Whether they will still look as before is another question, and they might also not be in the first MM.

The fact that they called the Angels "Angel of XXX" indicate to me that they reserve the names for something else.

 

[AllisterH]

That is a good point. The devils are perverted angels which killed the deity they served, but when angels are just mercenaries why was this act so evil to turn them into devils?

Um, as I mentioned earlier, the devils excerpt doesn't actually mention that devils ARE angels.

All it says is that Asmodeus was a divine servant and leader of a group of similar individuals. I think WOTC intentonally made it so that DMs can guess/shape their own campaign world or at the least, leave some mystery.

As well, even if they are mercenary, betraying their god might be seen as even something the evil deities could NOT tolerate without punishment (gives ideas to their own servants) so Bane and Bahamut might actually have come to an agreement and put the whammy on Asmodeus.

However, this assumes Asmodeus was an angel which is NOT what the devil excerpt actually says to my knowledge....It cagely dodges this by simply calling him a divine servant...