Excerpts: Angels

Personally, I like the idea that an Epic-level PC might start amassing Angel followers, because he or she might better represent a god's portfolio than the god! It actually creates some interesting story possibilities. What does the god do? What does the PC do?
 

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Derren said:
That is a good point. The devils are perverted angels which killed the deity they served, but when angels are just mercenaries why was this act so evil to turn them into devils?

That's like asking why mercenaries killing millions of people is an act evil enough to justify executing the mercenaries.

Besides, I don't think Gods want their servants to get the idea that killing them is an activity that is taken lightly.
 

Gargazon said:
That's like asking why mercenaries killing millions of people is an act evil enough to justify executing the mercenaries.

Besides, I don't think Gods want their servants to get the idea that killing them is an activity that is taken lightly.

Exactly. The new fluff on angels doesn't invalidate the idea of "devils as fallen angels" at all. The gods collectively would find the concept of deicide very, very, very bad and that alone would be grounds for them banding together to curse/punish the transgressors and do their best to lock them away.

Why not just obliterate them?

Maybe they couldn't. Maybe the collective power of the rebelling angels was too strong for the pantheon to end their existance. Maybe angels cannot be permanently killed, even by the gods, which given their origins now as sentient collections of astral energy makes at least a little sense. Remember, in polytheistic cultures the gods were NOT all-powerful like our judeo-christian concept of God is today... the gods were quite powerful but in their own ways were more akin to superheroes than the God of the bible/koran/torah/book of mormon/etc.

Maybe the collective pantheon couldn't destroy Asmodeus and his followers because in killing the unnamed god and becoming a god himself, Asmodeus was able to shield himself and his forces just enough so the best the pantheon could do was curse them and "lock them in". Asmodeus had no concept of loyalty or love for his forces, but could easily be justified in shielding them from the perspective of losing his military forces would leave him too weak.

In the end, your mileage may vary. I however can see some interesting possible epic-level campaign stories that might spin out from this.
 

On a different note, what does immortal mean?

As much as I like the movies, they have shown how immortals *aren't*.

What if immortals were immortals? What if killing one of this type means they will eventually reform? That the essence or being of the creature is still intact?

Of course, DND will probably take the movie route and have immortals killable, since epic level things are supposed to be able to go against gods. I do wonder what this subtype will mean? Probably just immune to aging or aging effects? Maybe bonuses to WIS and INT for age?

edg
 

Just to clarify, I seem to recall that it wasn't the collective pantheon acting against Asmodeus and his brethren, but the the dying curse of the god they murdered.

For all we know, some other deity helped instigate the insurrection.
 

Derren said:
That is a good point. The devils are perverted angels which killed the deity they served, but when angels are just mercenaries why was this act so evil to turn them into devils?
Like I suggested: The act wasn't. They could have done it and lived happily ever after, nothing special with this act that would have changed them. It were the rest of the gods, concerned that it might be a bad precedent if they allowed the traitors to live happily ever after and so the deities cursed them.

Had not the deities cursed them, nothing would have happened after the deicide. The deities could also just curse some other random bunch of angels and they would be changed into devils without ever having done anything wrong.

The "curse of devildom" itself is totally detached from their act of deicide
 

I understand the "no one uses angels" problem, but I don't like the "mercenary" angle either. And the generic-ness of these angels is likely to be a problem - I want angels that are more distinctly an extension of a given deity. A lot of people do too I think, so later splatbooks will publish a mess of them, and these generic angels won't get used much anyway.

It is probably a good idea for DDM to have a generic angel race, but not so much for a RPG.

From a moral POV I also frankly don't like the merging of good and evil I'm seeing in 4e. No holy or unholy, it's just "radiant." Angels serve everyone. Leads to reductive subjectivism, which if that's your thing fine... But my D&D has had meaningful Good versus Evil for a long time.
 

My take on it:

O-----------------------------O
When the Astral Plane, the realm of thought and concept, condensed, individual concepts, ideas, abstractions, ideologies, paradigms, and memes filled the silver void. Some of these were all-powerful, mighty and sufficiently self-aware to grow, expand, and form an active agenda - these are the deities living in the Astral Plane.

However, the deities are not encompassing all of these entities, many are too abstract, too minor, or too narrow to coalesce into a self-aware materialized being. Myriads of these motes are floating through the Astral Sea.

However, these motes are attracted to similar concepts, broader ideas, and encompassing thought constructs - just like individual ideas fit into a thought paradigm. Due to this, the motes wandered towards to like-minded gods, who were in tune with their own nature.

During the Primordial Wars, the gods quickly saw the need for soldiers and helpers. In their need, they took motes similar to their own being and endowed them with a tiny bit of their own, more powerful essence, enough to coalesce into existence - and created the angels.

The angels are usually aligned with their gods, but since they are only ideas close to their divine ruler's nature, they are not mere extensions of their divine will, but independent beings, acting out of their own volition, serving the gods, because they are so close to their gods' ideology, hence fulfilling their own desire to embody their ideal.

The power and rank of angels is normally determined by the match of the godly spark and the basic nature of the mote - the better they are in sync, the more powerful the bond between the metaphysical entities is - hence the less energy is wasted in to bond and the more powerful the angel becomes - which is also the reason, why higher ranking angels are often knowing their god's will much better than angels of lower ranks.

However, since they are now self-aware beings, they can - just as gods - subtly shift their own nature - which is basically the gift of being a sapient entity. When gods undergo paradigm shifts, some of the angels are often no longer compatible to their god's portfolio - in such cases, two things can happen:

The angel dissolves itself, splitting into a spark of the godly soul (which is re-absorbed by the god) and the original mote (which often gravitates towards another, more kindred god) - or the angel wrests the divine spark free, which is the concept of falling.

In such cases, the mote and the divine spark are fused together brutally, despite the fact that they're incompatible - hence such fallen angels are often marked by a violated appearance, reflecting their contradicting nature.

Normally, gods (and also angels themselves) only undergo very slow paradigm shifts, hence such angels do not fall, but decrease and rank and often dissolve willingly, before the fall happens (as they are still close enough to the god to respect him and his will). In fact, gods actively try to keep the paradigm shift in reign, after the spectacular Fall of Asmodeus:

He was an Angel of the highest rank, but when his god underwent a sudden shift, he went below the lowest rank - no longer close enough to his superior, he wrested the essence free, which such a force, that the deity suffered a large metaphysical wound. Since he was not the only angel suffering such a fall, he became the leader of the rebels, trying to kill the deity.

They, of course, knew what would happen - they would either fall even more or their divine essence would vanish with their dying god, dissolving them into mere motes. Unwilling to suffer that fate, Asmodeus reached into his deity's soul and tried to overtake it, to fuse with it. And he succeeded, becoming a self-contradicting and hence wholly corrupted being.
O-----------------------------O

Cheers, LT.
 

mxyzplk said:
I understand the "no one uses angels" problem, but I don't like the "mercenary" angle either. And the generic-ness of these angels is likely to be a problem - I want angels that are more distinctly an extension of a given deity. A lot of people do too I think, so later splatbooks will publish a mess of them, and these generic angels won't get used much anyway.

It is probably a good idea for DDM to have a generic angel race, but not so much for a RPG.

From a moral POV I also frankly don't like the merging of good and evil I'm seeing in 4e. No holy or unholy, it's just "radiant." Angels serve everyone. Leads to reductive subjectivism, which if that's your thing fine... But my D&D has had meaningful Good versus Evil for a long time.

I'm on the other side of the spectrum on the issue of merging good and evil, at least when it comes to power. Power is not good or evil, it just *is*. Heat is not evil, it can be used for good to keep us warm in the winter or for evil to take human life or destroy property. Similarly we see fiction in which characters with "evil powers" try to use them to accomplish good or where a character with "good powers" uses them for selfish, evil, or cruel reasons. I can point to the manga-esque series "Rebirth" as an example of this.

Besides, as the great Obi-Wan Kenobi said in episode VI... "a great many of the truths we hold depend on our point of view". Good and evil are terribly subjective qualities, depending heavily on what the subject deems beneficial or harmful. A republican might think the agenda of the democrats is "evil" to a degree, and the democrat would probably think the exact opposite... in a world of absolute good and evil I find one loses the possibility of stories based on differing viewpoints and agendas.
 

Novem5er said:
2. Do angels serve the gods... or do the gods serve the angels? What if a god wanted to dramatically change their portfolio? What if a god was somehow tricked into betraying their own values? I think a god without angels would be nearly powerless to exert direct influence across the planes. How's that for a story... Pelor is tricked by Vecna into punishing an innocent being (less god, epic level hero?). Pelor realizes his mistake, but his godful pride does not allow him to admit it and take action against Vecna. As a result, Pelor's angels walk away, leaving Pelor's Domain open for attack. The party's mission? Defend Pelor's Astral Domain from assault by Hextor while simultaneously working to get his angels back on his side.

I really like this concept and might steal some of it for a campaign come 4th edition.
 

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