Excerpts: Angels

[JohnRTroy]

If Wizards had kept what the beings were called before, Devas, Planetars, and Solars, I doubt there'd be as much problem with this as I and some other people have.

The beings have ties to elemental planes because of the original concept of the Devas patrolling different planes, and because Gygax used Theosophy concepts as their original basis, not Christianity. If you view this site you can read up on the Solar and Planetary Spirits and Devas and see how EGG was forming his view of the upper planes.

http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/etgloss/etg-hp.htm

These beings weren't called Angels until 3.5 came out, likely because non TSR WoTC staff had angels in MTG, or somebody thought of these beings as angels first and wanted to call "a spade a space", for lack of a better term. Personally, I think turning Angels into cosmic enforcers just take away from the name's connotation. It's like having Demons that are good--it hits the wrong note in most people's archetypes.

So, while the 4e concept is cool--in fact Gygax actually defined a Solar in Gord the Rogue as less "man with wings" and more "energy being", and in Mythus he stated there were such things as "Devas serving Balance"--I think I could live with this particular concept if we just returned to the original D&D terminology for these creatures and removed the term "Angel".

 

[Irda Ranger]

The "curse of devildom" itself is totally detached from their act of deicide

I prefer they be explicitly linked. The reference to "the curse of the dying God" may not have to be taken too literally.

My preferred explanation is that Angels were (are?) created (by accident or on purpose) to enforce the Will of Power. They are the tip of the sword; the messenger and manifestation of Purpose in one form. Once Pelor creates/summons/wills an Angel of Vengeance into being, that Angel exists for the rest of time as Pelor's Angel of Vengeance. It's a free-roaming Right Hand, but just as much a part of him as his actual right hand.

The form that Angels have reflect what they are. Combines Astral Matter with Will to Power and you get an Angel, every time. They're like trees in that sense - the appearance of the sower has no effect on the appearance of the sapling that springs from the seed.

But what happens when an Angel rips out the Will to Power that created him and replaces it with his own? This questions has been asked many times but answered only once in all the history of the Universe, and the answer received was Asmodeus. His Will then reached out and filled those who would follow him, but the fruit of the poisonous tree is poisonous in turn.

Devils are Angels with free will.

 

[Korgoth]

I thought paladins were allowed to serve evil gods now? Radiant I think no loner is automatically tied to good. It's tied to being DIVINE thus even a cleric of Bane does Radiant damage.

There's no holy and unholy anymore.

Oh. I stand corrected!

Here's another, unrelated concern, then. When I ran a 3.0 campaign, I introduced a character (an Orc beggar) who was really a polymorphed Planetar. He was sort of the PC's "guardian angel" (since, despite hostility with orcs, they treated him kindly). I was able to do that because Planetars could polymorph. But I'm not seeing powers such as those in these or any statblocks lately. Will such a twist still be possible (I mean, aside from just DM fiat)?

 

[AllisterH]

On a different note, what does immortal mean?

As much as I like the movies, they have shown how immortals *aren't*.

What if immortals were immortals? What if killing one of this type means they will eventually reform? That the essence or being of the creature is still intact?

Of course, DND will probably take the movie route and have immortals killable, since epic level things are supposed to be able to go against gods. I do wonder what this subtype will mean? Probably just immune to aging or aging effects? Maybe bonuses to WIS and INT for age?

edg

They changed it for 4e somewhat. Creatures now have SIZE_ORIGIN_TYPE_(subtype)

It actually refers to ORIGIN. Thus, if you're Immortal, your home plane is the Astral Sea.

If youre first type is FEY, then you come from the feywild and so on.

 

[Irda Ranger]

From a moral POV I also frankly don't like the merging of good and evil I'm seeing in 4e. No holy or unholy, it's just "radiant." Angels serve everyone. Leads to reductive subjectivism, which if that's your thing fine... But my D&D has had meaningful Good versus Evil for a long time.

I hear where you're coming from, but it does not lead to subjectivism. Good and Evil haven't merged, it's just that they use the same tools. Kind of like how Commies, Nazis and NATO all had infantry, planes, artillery and tanks, all of Bahamut, Kord, Bane, &c have angels, clerics, paladins and lightsabers radiant longswords.

 

[DandD]

If you decide to, yes. Be it through a shape-changing ritual, or an unique ability only to that peculiar angel-being. It's just that the majority can't or don't want to do this.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I'm not. It just bugs the hell out of me that bribing Angels with money is even an option.

Then you obviously don't want there to be a god of wealth in your campaigns.

Seriously, if the angels are to represent aspects of the portfolios of the deities (or potential portfolios), then some of them will represent greed, some of them will represent aspects of mercenaries, some of them will represent other concepts that relate to hiring for service.

 

[hong]

The preview does mention angels working secretly, so presumably some of them will have the ability to blend in with mortals.

 

[mxyzplk]

I hear where you're coming from, but it does not lead to subjectivism. Good and Evil haven't merged, it's just that they use the same tools. Kind of like how Commies, Nazis and NATO all had infantry, planes, artillery and tanks, all of Bahamut, Kord, Bane, &c have angels, clerics, paladins and lightsabers radiant longswords.

But the behavior of Allies and Nazis were different in more than just who was going to win. (Let's not identofy Allies and Nazis totally with Good and Evil, because that leads unfruitfully down paths where the Allies also did evil things, like the Japanese internment camps).

So sure, both sides should get "attacks." But you'll note they've cut out every other special ability in 4e. None of these angels can heal, or feed, or whatnot, they just kill. They don't have any abilities that cleverly use mercy or self-sacrifice or other Good attributes - they just kill.

It's not just the stat block, but if the abilities don't differ, the tactics don't differ, and the background doesn't differ, then yeah, devils and angels being largely equated is a very subjectivist stance.

 

[quixoteles]

So when they come up with this... convoluted readjustment of what used to be the classic manifestation of the battle between good and evil, in favor of efficiency in game design publishing, I get annoyed. I think that this change was a poor decision. If its core I think it should be classic. Save the groundbreaking cosmologies for a specific setting.

I think it's already obvious that the people at WOtC have taken a serious critical look at what "classic" is at this moment in time, and have adjusted the game to reflect that. Perhaps the clichés from only a generation ago are outdated, perhaps in a country where we identify more with Clint Eastwood than John Wayne. Where good is tough and filthy and gritty; this is the new classic.

Dark Angels are certainly ho-hum for me at this point, it not like I didn't watch X-topher Walken play the guy so good he's bad when I was 12. Not like these things don't rain down sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah or do counterintelligence and sabotage missions on the architects of the tower of Babel. They're scary amoral heavies, and monsters are fer killin' indeed.

If you don't need shelter, food, or really any comfort and don't desire much of anything. The fluff says they are a function of a universe that is MAGIC, not just add-on to, or an exception to what we know as science, but a wholly magical cosmology, and that is radical. If you are a concept, an aspect, rather than a person, then money or power are empty concepts for you. The only thing that matters to you is execution of your essential nature: vengeance, valor, protection, snuggles, etc. Angels of Valor can't be hired to baby sit your kid or kill your ex-wife: they show courage in combat. Period.

Chaotic Evil outsiders aren't concerned with a valor angel legionnaire's services. Valor as a concept is nonsense to them. Lawful Evil outsiders (I can't remember which is which, demons or devils)... perhaps. A dark angel wreaking vengeance upon a paragon of good that antagonized an evil god... yes, they would do that in 4e. And that's exciting, really very exciting.

This is "Mommy, why do bad things happen to good dungeon crawlers?" good.

This is better role playing good.

This is storytelling brilliance good.

Angels spend more time kicking human butt than devil butt in the old King James Bible. And no where in the official books did any of the celestials get tied to any particular gods, good or evil in the third edition meta-setting.

Actually my classic, BoED angel's in my games involved something like this but I couldn't articulate it quite as well. So Average Citizen, they SAVED me work ironically.