Excerpts: PHB2 - Heric Tier Feats

[evilbob]

"all characters begin with either Weapon or Implement Expertise; reduce the number of feats you will choose in the game by one."

Quoted for truth. Others have already gone into this, and I agree it's not necessarily a level one thing, but they may as well have said everyone gets 1 fewer feat, and +1 to attacks at 5, 15, 25. The only "balance" this gives is to further screw double-stat characters like the poor paly or cleric, since they'll need this one twice.

I think there needs to be a new rule in the PHB2: "Whenever a new book is released, the rules for retraining are temporarily ignored and the moment you purchase the book you are free to change every aspect of your character in order to account for the power creep inherent in our new releases." Seriously, I will ask my DM to allow insta-changes the moment this comes out, because I will need to dump a feat for an Expertise feat. In fact, maybe I should show him the page so I can change for the next session...

 

[twilsemail]

So, reading over this thread, and debating it in my own head I've thought of a possible solution to the problem, without just giving a flat bonus to PCs. Are Masterwork Weapons and Implements a horrible idea? +1 for a +2/+3 item, +2 for a +4/+5 Item and +3 for a +6 item?

I'm offended by this near mandatory feat and I don't really like the clunky fix of "+1 at appropriate times during the rules." The fix just means it's another item for PCs to think of when leveling up. The Masterwork is just a neat add on.

Comparison:
Fix: Well, you hit level 5, add another +1 to your sheet
Masterwork: You've found a Mithril Fullblade, it grants a +1 Masterwork bonus to attacks made with it. Look, it's shiny.

 

[Klaus]

My rogue will be taking Distant Advantage, Melee Training and Weapon Expertise ASAP! w00t!

 

[deleteme123456]

Masterwork bonuses are a pain for any class with two weapons and/or implements:
TW Rangers, Tempest Fighters (but please, feel free to screw them ), Melee Clerics & Paladins w/o Holy Avengers... OK, that's all I have at the moment.

It has a slight benefit for classes that use weapons as implements (Swordmage, maybe Bard or Druid)... but it's easier just to put it in the rules. If you're using the character builder, just give yourself the feat(s) at level 5, oh noes, your character is now house-ruled... panic...

 

[Mengu]

My favorites of the lot are:

Anger Unleashed (depending on wording, the +2 bonus could apply 3-4 times in one combat between their encounter power, regenerating powers and the occasional healing, not to mention action points and the occasional free attack from a warlord with good timing).

Distant Advantage (good for rogue, but especially good for archer ranger and warlock)

Goliath Greatweapon Prowess (almost no brainer for the Goliath Barbarian)

Markings of the Victor (early and reliable use of some encounter or daily powers can make a big difference in an encounter)

Melee Training (for rogues and charisma paladins who like to charge, especially if they have a warlord who grants free basic attacks)

Thirst for Battle (for the half-orc brutal scoundral)

Timely Respite (for the resilient dwarf builds)

I'm ignoring the existence of the expertise feats at the moment. Haven't decided what to do about them yet.

 

[twilsemail]

Masterwork bonuses are a pain for any class with two weapons and/or implements:
TW Rangers, Tempest Fighters (but please, feel free to screw them ), Melee Clerics & Paladins w/o Holy Avengers... OK, that's all I have at the moment.

Every build I've seen with these classes, though, has had magic items at higher levels. Also, I really don't think that the first two are really going to need any help. Paladins without Holy Avengers or something similar seems a bit shocking to me. I don't think I can picture an Epic Paladin without some kind of Holy Sword... That's mostly fluff though, I guess.

 

[Cadfan]

I thought the masterwork armor just smoothed out the AC curve, without significantly increasing the overall power level of the game? Am I wrong? I'll have to go look at that again.

 

[evilbob]

It's interesting to me how more new books actually take away options.

That goliath two-hander feat is just another example: there, now you've limited the goliath down two more feats, since they have to take Weapon Expertise as well. So warrior-type goliaths have 3 feat choices at heroic level instead of 6 (since you're going to take Weapon Focus, too). And you've got your only armband item already pre-determined as well (Iron Armbands of Power). Pretty soon, there will be only a couple of simple choices left, and you'll have the same cookie-cutter character that everyone else has, too. I wonder what mandatory feats or loot will be introduced with Arcane Power? Since wizards haven't gotten much love yet, I'm guessing a few.

 

[catsclaw227]

(And while you're at it errata that feat so you get +1 at 5th level, +2 at 15th and +3 at 25th level for your fav grouping of weapons or implements for free, no feat required!)

Not sure this would work as a "free" item.

You can retrain feats if you want, and if a PC gets a cool weapon that isn't part of their Weapon Group, they can simply retrain at the next level and change the weapon group.

Now... this assumes that the DM isn't using wish lists and providing items appropriate to the PC.

But retraining would be effective if someone wants a specific artifact like Sword of Kas.

 

[SteveC]

It allows a paladin to go full CHA, and still be able to hit on a charge and an OA - both being rather useful for a defender.

It also allows a rogue to make basic attacks and have a chance to hit. Many times my rogue might find himself placed in the perfect situation for a sneak attack and then the warlord will give it to someone else because he knows I'm just going to miss with it. I know I'm picking it up ASAP!

--Steve