Exchanging feats and skills

[Chaldfont]

In my longest running campaign (we've been playing with the same characters since 3e came out), I have done this many times. Why penalize a player who made a poor choice in feats or skills? What if they want to take a prestige class that really fits their PC concept and the campaign plot but they didn't choose the correct feat early on?

We've taken a few long breaks in the campaign to play other games and, when we return, I always give the players the chance to re-create their PCs with basically the same stats. But if they want to rearrange feats or skills or even want to switch out a level or two with some other class, I see nothing wrong with it.

 

[lukelightning]

So if a PC dies, he can't make a similar character?

that latter part wouldn't work in my campaign.

I started the original characters off with HIGH stats (a little too high) so modified all future characters.

In addition, new players start 2 levels lower than the highest level player.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to change your character, but I'm not rewarding you for it in the middle of the game.

 

[JoeGKushner]

So if a PC dies, he can't make a similar character?

He can make a similiar character, but because I'm not allowing him to start at the same level as the other players, nor with the same (over generous) starting stats, the character will not be exactly alike.

 

[JoeGKushner]

In my longest running campaign (we've been playing with the same characters since 3e came out), I have done this many times. Why penalize a player who made a poor choice in feats or skills?

Why reward him for making poor choices in feats or skills?

What if they want to take a prestige class that really fits their PC concept and the campaign plot but they didn't choose the correct feat early on?

If they have a PrC that really fits, I'm more than willing to work with the players and perhaps design something like a test requirement. On the other hand, I'm not going to alter the rules from the core if the player isn't making any effort to get to the PrC and wants to take the PrC just for the kewl stuff.

 

[shilsen]

I've let players change feats and skills if they realized it was a poor choice and never really used the feat. It's like the "no-fault alignment change" rule: If you make a character of a certain alignment and then start playing the game, you might realize your concept of the character's personality doesn't match the alignment you chose...so "poof" you just change the alignment to something that matches it.

Similarly, if a player made a super sneaky rogue and took the the stealthy feat, and then upon playing realized he didn't really sneak around much, I'd let him swap the feat to something more in-line with the way he's playing his character.

This is, of course, easiest for feats/skills that the player never used; in any case I'd rather have players that are happy with their characters than worry about "oh my god you can't switch awareness for quick draw it will ruin my game!!!!"

That's basically the approach I take. I've let people trade out feats and change skills around a number of times. Like you, I'd be unlikely to allow that for feats and skills which have seen regular and significant use.

 

[lukelightning]

Why reward him for making poor choices in feats or skills?

There are some feats and skills that are hard to judge without playing. Perhaps they are campaign dependant? e.g. you took Skill focus: diplomacy because you were under the impression there would be a lot of social interactions, but then it turns out the campaign is a dungeon crawl. Or you took an item creation feat and you aren't given any down time to create anything. Or you took weapon focus: trident and have yet to aqcuire a magic trident either through purchase or treasure.

I don't think some 5th level character should be able to change the feat he took at first level, but I certainly wouldn't rule out allowing a recently-acquired feat or skill points to be shuffled around.

 

[JoeGKushner]

There are some feats and skills that are hard to judge without playing. Perhaps they are campaign dependant? e.g. you took Skill focus: diplomacy because you were under the impression there would be a lot of social interactions, but then it turns out the campaign is a dungeon crawl. Or you took an item creation feat and you aren't given any down time to create anything. Or you took weapon focus: trident and have yet to aqcuire a magic trident either through purchase or treasure.

I don't think some 5th level character should be able to change the feat he took at first level, but I certainly wouldn't rule out allowing a recently-acquired feat or skill points to be shuffled around.

To quote myself from earlier in this thread, "Players should work with me before making a character that they want to play if they're not going to be happy that their rogue isn't doing well in an undead campaign for example."

If I tell the players not to expect a lot of magical exotic weapons and that they'll have to craft them personally and they still take weapon focus and weapon specializations feats and don't craft such a weapon, or don't spend a lot of gold finding out about such a weapon...

For example, they could spend money and find out that an ancient civilization had mercenaries who favored the trident and that there is a magical trident there. They could find out that an intelligent magical trident known as Wave is in White Plume Mountain. They could find out that an ancient ruin under the sea is inhabited by Sea Devils and that their leader uses a magical trident. Stuff isn't just going to fall into their lap because they went direction X and I told them the game was going direction Y.

"Man, I really wish I hadn't speclaized in shot gun! This stupid greyhawk campaign doesn't even allow them!"

 

[atom crash]

I usually allow such changes if they are minor and don't impact the story so far.

My current campaign started with a bunch of 3E characters and morphed somewhere around 5th level to v3.5. Now the characters are 8th and 9th level. I just ret-conned the rogue/sorceror to incorporate the bloodlines from Dragon Magazine into the game, and we realized the dwarven fighter had used the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat for his dwarven waraxe, which is treated as a martial weapon for him in v3.5. So our last session saw us ending early (we came to a logical break in the game) and spending some time adjusting the characters.

However, I've also disallowed such changes in the past. In a 3.0 campaign, a player wanted to swap out a spell, but since his sorceror had been making ample use of the spell he wanted to lose in lieu of another, I forbade it. The irony is that v3.5 now allows such changes.

 

[Chaldfont]

Why reward him for making poor choices in feats or skills?

This is a terrible attitude toward your players!

How do you teach new players? How do you encourage them to get better--by gleefully punishing those who take Profession (cook) and Use Rope? Do you smite un-optimized PCs until your players become min/maxers? Do you chuckle secretly at those who select the Toughness feat?

Don't get me wrong, if you and your group are having fun then keep doing what you're doing. I just prefer to play with my players, not against them.

 

[JoeGKushner]

This is a terrible attitude toward your players!

How do you teach new players? How do you encourage them to get better--by gleefully punishing those who take Profession (cook) and Use Rope? Do you smite un-optimized PCs until your players become min/maxers? Do you chuckle secretly at those who select the Toughness feat?

Don't get me wrong, if you and your group are having fun then keep doing what you're doing. I just prefer to play with my players, not against them.

And to quote myself again, "Players should work with me before making a character that they want to play if they're not going to be happy that their rogue isn't doing well in an undead campaign for example."

Can't help them out any more than that.