Exclusive Class Skill Feat?
- Thread starter Janos Antero
- Start date
Ravellion
serves Gnome Master
I think the BAB retort is flawed, in any case, but that's another discussion.
Cross Class skills are there for flavour reasons only - with possible exception of the perception skills and Use Magic Device. All the rest you could pretty much give to anyone without truly altering the balance - the flavour, yes, but not the balance.
Rav
Cross Class skills are there for flavour reasons only - with possible exception of the perception skills and Use Magic Device. All the rest you could pretty much give to anyone without truly altering the balance - the flavour, yes, but not the balance.
Rav
Kae'Yoss
First Post
Ravellion said:
I strongly disagree
So a fighter can be as stealthy as a rogue? Investing his two skill points in Move Silently and Hide, the rogue won't be a better scout anymore. And the ranger will be outclassed even further.
Then there's Tumble, which is pretty useful, and should remain cross class for most characters.
A wizard should have more knowledge about spells and magic than your average barbarian, and therefore Spellcraft and Knowledge [Arcana] must remain xc for nonspellcasters (and K[A] is nothing for druids, either).
Being better in skills is more than just flavor, except when the campaign is Kick-in-the-Door style, and skill checks like balance or climb won't be necessary in a Diablo-style dungeon. It's a fact that some characters have better opportunities to learn skills than others! I don't see why a fighter should be as good in Survival as a Druid, as the latter's whole training focuses on skills and powers associated with nature, while the former just trains to fight better. No, XC's here to stay!
Dimwhit
Explorer
What about skills like Spot and Listen? I think those need to be class skills for more classes. Especially the fighter.
Of course, this is coming from the guy who thinks fear spells and effects should require a Fort save, not a Will. It's always bugged me that our of a group of high level characters, the Fighter is the one most likely to be feared and run away from a battle. They should be the last ones affected by fear.
But that's completely off-topic.
Of course, this is coming from the guy who thinks fear spells and effects should require a Fort save, not a Will. It's always bugged me that our of a group of high level characters, the Fighter is the one most likely to be feared and run away from a battle. They should be the last ones affected by fear.
But that's completely off-topic.
Ravellion
serves Gnome Master
You don't understand - you say yourself that the druid should know stuff about survival. Completely true. But it isn't unbalancing for the figther to have this. The fighter might have knowledge Arcana, Wilderness lore, Perform and Spellcraft, but if the Wizard then has Open lock and Disable Device, and the Rogue has Ride and Handle Animal and sneak attacks from his warhorse... well I think you see where I am going. You say you disagree with my argument that flavour reasons are all that is keeping X-class skills in place... and then you give arguments that say that the flavour reasons are important.KaeYoss said:
Well if I want a fighter who can recognise spells, there is nothing really unbalancing about that. It might be off in flavour. But I would like the option to use Wilderness Lore etc. if my character concept justifies it. The extra rules are needlessly complicated, especially as soon as multiclassing enters the picture.
Rav
Lord Pendragon
First Post
You have that option already. There's a section in the PH that describes tweaking existing classes for character concept. It simply requires the DM's approval.Ravellion said:
Class, cross class, and exclusive skills are more than just flavor; they are part of game balance. One of the things you benefit from by taking rogue and bard is that you have some great skill options. Not so for the fighter. He has other goodies. That there are cross class and exclusive skills is a good thing.
Of course, as Lord Pendragon said, those lists can be changed. With the DM's approval, you can switch out a class skill for a cross class. You can be that spotting fighter, or the lip reading ranger. But you still must switch out skills; you can't keep your current skill list. Versatility is restricted to make the less powerful fighters more effeictive out of combat. Just as long as that restriction remains in place, then it should still be balanced.
Take Trogdar the Fighter, for example. He likes to track things. So he's on the ground the whole time. He takes Track as his first level feat. He tracks fairly well. Wild Lore is a class skill. But since he's on the ground the whole time, he has no idea how to climb. That skill through disuse has become cross class.
Or maybe he sits in ambush all through his training. He waits and waits and waits for things to come by. Spot and Listen become class skills. Jump and swim atrophy away. Cross class.
You can shift a character's versatility, but if you expand it, you must then contract it as well so as not to be unfair to the other classes.
Of course, as Lord Pendragon said, those lists can be changed. With the DM's approval, you can switch out a class skill for a cross class. You can be that spotting fighter, or the lip reading ranger. But you still must switch out skills; you can't keep your current skill list. Versatility is restricted to make the less powerful fighters more effeictive out of combat. Just as long as that restriction remains in place, then it should still be balanced.
Take Trogdar the Fighter, for example. He likes to track things. So he's on the ground the whole time. He takes Track as his first level feat. He tracks fairly well. Wild Lore is a class skill. But since he's on the ground the whole time, he has no idea how to climb. That skill through disuse has become cross class.
Or maybe he sits in ambush all through his training. He waits and waits and waits for things to come by. Spot and Listen become class skills. Jump and swim atrophy away. Cross class.
You can shift a character's versatility, but if you expand it, you must then contract it as well so as not to be unfair to the other classes.
thegreatbuddha
First Post
One could always take Skill Prodigy (Use Magic Device) twice, thus making it a class skill. If a character wants to throw 2 feats + skill points to make UMD a class skill, I see nothing unbalancing there. Of course, a slightly more twinkish route would be to take Skill Prodigy (UMD), making it a cross-class skill so it qualifies for Cosmopolitan. It nets you a +2 bonus on skill checks and it's still a class skill....
Lord Pendragon
First Post
Troll.Ravellion said:So do the Monk multiclassing restrictions... I'd rather have something 100% tangible in the rules somewhere.
I was just playing devil's advocate though, I adhere to class and cross class skills in my game religiously
Rav
Seriously, though, I think that the rules as written should represent a well-balanced game. When you tweak skill lists, you're playing with the balance of the classes as Felix pointed out. So I'd rather my rules explicitly state the way that they've determined works, while providing me (as the DM) with options to play with things if I dare. Exactly how it's handled now, in fact.
