Executing Judgment On Paladins!

[reapersaurus]

good point, sword-dancer.

However, to understand SHARK's ideas of paldin's you have to consider SHARK's background in the Marines.

SHARK - some points with what you said.

You start off saying that normally a "civilized", advanced culture would be more likely to spawn paladins.

I'd have to say that's a reasonable statement.

Then you end up (I think) concluding that a "barbarous" society wouldn't spawn a paladin.
That does not follow as a reasonable conclusion.

Paladins are different - you view them as exceptional individuals that are honed and taught right from wrong and how best to use their skills to do good.

I view Paladins as those that are born different - with an innate sense of right and wrong.
They aree not required to go to Paladin School and force-fed the beliefs and procedure of someone else.

Read my background of Kerith.
Hopefully that will kind of make clear my approach to a paladin.

I hope you'll like the story, and it'll help us to understand each other.

 

[Voadam]

First, for Hand of Evil's code

the exact text of the Boy Scout oath is:

On my honor,
I will do my best,
To do my duty,
To God and my country,
To obey the scout law,
To help other people at all times
To keep myself physically fit, mentally awake and morally straight.

Offtopic but related to a past Shark post regarding the magic vallorean field rations. I recently got a friend of mine to bring back an MRE and they have changed a bit, they now have self heaters and some of the food inside the packets have non camoflage packaging, i.e. jolly ranchers and honey oats granola bars as it they had come out of a store. The tortelini was pretty good too.

Now back to the topic at hand.

Shark, you seem to have a well thought out knightly order system which has social/temporal ramifications for the knights, but none of this seems necessary for paladins and would seem to apply to anybody who is a part of these orders and I don't see any reason for these order to not be open to fighters and clerics as well.

If there is a knightly order solely made up of paladins then it probably has a temporal code similar to what you have done out, but there is also the code that is independent of any social structures or orders. These are inherent in the nature of being a paladin and relate to refraining from evil, etc. and the penalty for failing is loss of paladin powers, either until atonement or forever.

In the 3e PH they go to some lengths to make the paladin concept more open than a restricted knighthood, you CAN rise up as called to do good one morning and be empowered by the forces of good as a champion of all that is right and just. What options are available in an individual campaign are up to the DM and what type of world he presents.

From your responses Shark I would say you fall in the old school of paladins being knightly order types on your world as a standard.

By the way, is there any situation where paladins will be charged by the military tribunal, court martialed, expelled from the order, have their sword broken in half but then wander throughout the west of the vallorean empire doing good and setting things right, paladin powers intact? Reading your court martial procedures just conjure up images of the rifleman for me.

 

[The Sigil]

Thoughts...

just a few random musings...

Some of the code you have outlined, Shark, could force a paladin to walk a razor's edge...

"<Goblins> are declared anathema and irredeemable and should be slain on sight." (or words to that effect)

Now that can raise some really fun questions:

1.) Is this the will of the paladin's deity, or just the will of the uppity-ups in the church heirarchy? Hm....

2.) Let us assume for a moment that it is the will of some of the uppity-ups but not the deity... in which case a paladin who follows orders from the uppity-ups might slay innocent non-combatants and despite being in good standing with the church, finds his powers "ripped" by the deity.

3.) Similarly, he might refrain from attacking noncombatants and retain his paladin powers but be censured by the church.

A whole host of similar situations can arise any time you get a code and a church heirarchy that is not directly led by the deity.

Now, granted, some of these infractions probably tick off both deity and church (e.g., rape) but what about the paladin who comes to be "enlightened" through experience rather than dogmatic following of the church?

While I like the idea of a set of rigid codes and tribunals, I would like to add one more condition... the paladin's ability to irrevocably prove his worthiness/innocence. If the paladin is convicted in tribunal, he may appeal to his deity... and the proof comes in the pudding. An injured person is brought before the paladin, who must use his/her "lay on hands" ability to heal the injured (alternatively, the paladin must allow himself to be injured - flogged perhaps? - and then heal himself). If the paladin is in favor with his deity, he will retain the power to heal and hence his worthiness; if he is not able to heal, it is demonstrable proof of his unworthiness. In fact, such a request could obviate the need for trials altogether.

I suppose it would go without saying that someone (an uppity-up cleric?) who condemns the paladin as having committed an evil act and censures him for being unworthy - or someone who wrongfully accuses the paladin - will quickly find that by wrongfully censuring/condemning the paladin, he himself has come under displeasure of the deity and has his OWN powers stripped. Makes for serious judges and knocks down the number of frivolous charges, eh?

If the person honestly believed the paladin was unworthy, perhaps the god is lenient. For example, the cleric might honestly believe the charges that the paladin spared goblins and condemns him. When he finds out that these were goblin children, he lifts the condemnation. OTOH, a clergyman who condemns a paladin for staying his hand and exhibiting mercy to goblin children might well feel the displeasure of deity by having his OWN powers revoked until HE atoned for his bigotry.

Just some thoughts... hope they were clear enough. It just seems to me that all that is needed for a paladin to clear himself is to use his abilities... unless, of course, that falls under, "thou shalt not tempt the lord thy god..."

--The Sigil

 

[Voadam]

Sigil,

I think that is "thou shalt not test the lord thy god."

On a similar theme, Shark, what is this talk of a paladin's defender? Any knightly paladin worth his salt will prove his own innocence through trial by combat! "Give me my flail and my plate mail and we will see who has the right of it! Let the dog who would besmirch my name with baseless accusations stand before me and by the gods we will settle this man to man before the sight of holy church, king, and all true men!"

 

[reapersaurus]

Sigil - you don't understand SHARK's world.

It is inconceivable for anyone in the church heirarchy to be incorrect.

They are the diety's representatives on Vallorea, and are therefore beyond reproach.
They don't make mistakes.
They don't interpret words or people wrong.
They never misrepresent the teachings of the diety to benefit themselves or their order.

If they did, you see, it would cause the entire Empire that SHARK has built to tumble down into self-doubt and ineffectiveness.

If Vallorea's political OR religious leaders were found to be corrupt, or manipulative of their incredibly powerful station even one iota...... than it would call into question every single "ethnic cleansing" and "liberation" and "occupation" and "re-education" campaign that they have forced upon the lands in the NAME of all that is Good and Right.

 

[The Sigil]

Ah...

Sigil - you don't understand SHARK's world.

It is inconceivable for anyone in the church heirarchy to be incorrect.

They are the diety's representatives on Vallorea, and are therefore beyond reproach.
They don't make mistakes.
They don't interpret words or people wrong.
They never misrepresent the teachings of the diety to benefit themselves or their order.

If they did, you see, it would cause the entire Empire that SHARK has built to tumble down into self-doubt and ineffectiveness.

If Vallorea's political OR religious leaders were found to be corrupt, or manipulative of their incredibly powerful station even one iota...... than it would call into question every single "ethnic cleansing" and "liberation" and "occupation" and "re-education" campaign that they have forced upon the lands in the NAME of all that is Good and Right.

Ah... so I don't have to worry about said religious leaders being accused of child molestation, right?

Seriously, in my experience, absolute power corrupts... and these guys look RIPE for corruption... unless of course, the God himself is (a) a servant of the clergy or (b) corrupt.

I guess I'm just mistrustful of anyone who claims to be infallible... that is tantamount to claiming that one is (a) god.

I'm not trying to troll here... just pointing out that I have a very difficult time accepting that such a perfect organization exists, even in a fantasy milieu.

I don't doubt that incredible political power might be held by such an organization... I just feel that with such a draconic organization, eventually it is bound to "drift" away from goodness and righteousness and at that point, the deity in question will "sever ties" with it - the church heirarchy no longer gains spells because they have set themselves on a course contrary to that of the deity's. Some of the priests who remain true to the deity are granted powers, but they become ever fewer as the heirarchy forces "orthodoxy." Eventually (perhaps it takes a generation or two), every clergyman is "orthodox" and therefore out of favor with deity. The church then has no more healings, no more miracles. No reason for the people to believe. They might have draconic political power then, but will have no divine spells and certainly no paladins.

--The Sigil

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Voadam:

Yes, the orders usually are open to other classes as well, besides paladins. They often have different branches of the order, similar to the historical Knights-Templar, where Fighters, Clerics, and Wizards all serve the order, as well as Paladins. Each of the different branches has access to some common prestige classes, as well as customized prestige classes specialized for that particular branch.

Indeed, in some cases, Paladins can in fact expect a trial by combat as you so eloquently suggest! I love trial by combat! In a related matter, I interpret Detect Evil in some different ways, so that someone just can't scan a person and instantly know their alignment. So, for other members of the order to attempt to simply hold a paladin down and scan him wouldn't reveal anything in particular--whether he was of good alignment, or in fact, had gone down the dark road to damnation!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Interesting commentary Sigil!

Sigil wrote:
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Quote:

"Some of the code you have outlined, Shark, could force a paladin to walk a razor's edge..."
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End Quote.

Indeed, Sigil, that is precisely the idea! Walking the Razor's Edge is the challenge of being a Paladin, in my mind. I like that!





____________________________________________________
Quote:

"<Goblins> are declared anathema and irredeemable and should be slain on sight." (or words to that effect)

Now that can raise some really fun questions:

1.) Is this the will of the paladin's deity, or just the will of the uppity-ups in the church heirarchy? Hm...."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Generally, it is the will of the King, the Church, and the Gods. As the Player's Handbook says, "The Paladin, Alhandra, fights against Evil without mercy..." (paraphrase) So, unless there is compelling evidence to the contrary, all such evil races are to be exterminated wherever they are found, "Root and Branch," as they used to say in the Dark Ages. There are a few individuals, and perhaps small groups that aren't necessarily evil, but out of millions and millions of creatures, over hundreds of years, they are very unusual, and numerically, insignificant. Policy and doctrine are not made because a few, somewhere, somehow, might be different. That consideration doesn't a policy make, you know? At the end of the day, a Cleric of the Vallorean Pantheon might say to a group of gathered paladins, knights, or soldiers, something from the Code of Drannicus,

"What of Barbarous Races?"

If the barbarous races fail to come to the light of the True Faith, and are exterminated in the fire and blood of war, what of it? If they be truly of pure soul, and have prostrated themselves in their heart before the True Gods, then the righteous gods shall recognize them as their souls are released to eternity, and they will be welcomed into Heaven, and be blessed with eternal rewards. Their lives of being born into a vile race shall be forgiven them at that time. After all, this mortal life is not so important. The greatest life is the eternal life to come in the Halls of Heaven with the True Gods. There, in those glorious, righteous halls, is found true reward, peace, and blessing. This wicked world is but a moment in time, and what happens to creatures here is of less importance to what their eternal destiny is. Individuals of such vile races that have foresworn their evil ways will be blessed in the afterlife, as their death was ultimately from the embracement of the evil race about them. They shall then be accounted righteous, and live in eternal glory with all other races who worship the True Gods!"





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Quote:

"2.) Let us assume for a moment that it is the will of some of the uppity-ups but not the deity... in which case a paladin who follows orders from the uppity-ups might slay innocent non-combatants and despite being in good standing with the church, finds his powers "ripped" by the deity."
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End Quote.

In such cases, the deity moves in mysterious ways that mortal minds cannot divine or penetrate. The paladin, while having the favour of the temporal Church, may still have displeased the deity in ways that the Church can not determine, and the paladin would still be punished in some way by the deity, and suffer whatever form of punishment and wrath that the deity has determined.





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Quote:

"3.) Similarly, he might refrain from attacking noncombatants and retain his paladin powers but be censured by the church."
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End Quote.

Non-combatants? In the Vallorean Empire many would see through a different paradigm--

"Evil races are seen as evil races--young or old, male or female, there is no distinction, but for their capacity to exercise and impose their evil will upon others. Is there a difference between a young, vile Rat, and an old, vile Rat? Between a male Rat and a female Rat? Nay, they are one and the same. The evil races are a vile, wicked plague upon the good earth, and they must be cleansed from the land. Their very existence is an affront to all that is good, holy, and righteous!"

Thus, the paladin may choose to not kill various members of evil races--but he must be sure of them not being evil, or he may be subject to censure by the gods or by the Church. Such races are not pure and innocent until one day they turn 18, and are now "evil." Such races, and such individuals, are evil long before that, and enjoy it thusly. The odd individual who isn't evil, isn't evil then--but it isn't based on their age or health, it's based on their convictions, faith, and lifestyle. If that non-evil creature's convictions, faith, and lifestyle isn't quickly and convincingly proven, then they are likely to be swallowed by the flame and death of war.




____________________________________________________
Quote:

"A whole host of similar situations can arise any time you get a code and a church heirarchy that is not directly led by the deity.

Now, granted, some of these infractions probably tick off both deity and church (e.g., rape) but what about the paladin who comes to be "enlightened" through experience rather than dogmatic following of the church?"
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

"Enlightened through experience?"--How so? What do you mean? In my mind, Paladins are not made in a vaccuum. Think of their abilities, their skills, their convictions. Paladins don't just wake up one day thinking, believing, and doing such things. They must be trained, disciplined, and instructed in such. A form of divine blessing and purpose may already be upon them, but that is divine potential, that must be realised and brought to fruition. I don't see paladins just doing all that by themselves, you know?





____________________________________________________
Quote:

"While I like the idea of a set of rigid codes and tribunals, I would like to add one more condition... the paladin's ability to irrevocably prove his worthiness/innocence. If the paladin is convicted in tribunal, he may appeal to his deity... and the proof comes in the pudding. An injured person is brought before the paladin, who must use his/her "lay on hands" ability to heal the injured (alternatively, the paladin must allow himself to be injured - flogged perhaps? - and then heal himself). If the paladin is in favor with his deity, he will retain the power to heal and hence his worthiness; if he is not able to heal, it is demonstrable proof of his unworthiness. In fact, such a request could obviate the need for trials altogether.

I suppose it would go without saying that someone (an uppity-up cleric?) who condemns the paladin as having committed an evil act and censures him for being unworthy - or someone who wrongfully accuses the paladin - will quickly find that by wrongfully censuring/condemning the paladin, he himself has come under displeasure of the deity and has his OWN powers stripped. Makes for serious judges and knocks down the number of frivolous charges, eh?

If the person honestly believed the paladin was unworthy, perhaps the god is lenient. For example, the cleric might honestly believe the charges that the paladin spared goblins and condemns him. When he finds out that these were goblin children, he lifts the condemnation. OTOH, a clergyman who condemns a paladin for staying his hand and exhibiting mercy to goblin children might well feel the displeasure of deity by having his OWN powers revoked until HE atoned for his bigotry.

Just some thoughts... hope they were clear enough. It just seems to me that all that is needed for a paladin to clear himself is to use his abilities... unless, of course, that falls under, "thou shalt not tempt the lord thy god..." "
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End Quote.

Indeed, there can be mistakes made. I like that. Though many in the church are good and obedient servants of the gods, few of them are perfect. They make mistakes in judgment on occasion, just like paladins do. There is a broad degree between what mortals do normally, even with the best of intentions, and absolute holy and righteous perfection. That is an impossibly high standard that a mortal creature cannot attain--and the gods don't expect them to attain a level of unattainable perfection. Being mortal alone is an incompatible contradiction to that premise. The advantage it allows though is that while generally well-meaning, pious, righteous, and devout, as well as being quite efficient, the mortal followers of the pantheon make mistakes, and also have different occasions of corruption and vice. The temple needs to be disciplined as well from time to time, and those who have fallen to temptation either jduged through pennance and restored to service within the faith, or if severe enough, they too can be burned at the stake!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[sword-dancer]

,

SHARK [/B]

Hello SHARK

Indeed, Sigil, that is precisely the idea! Walking the Razor's Edge is the challenge of being a Paladin, in my mind. I like that!

The razors edge between lawful authority and good, not the hard road following the true way of defending the downtrodden, the innocent against evil.

Cleric of the Vallorean Pantheon might say to a group of gathered paladins, knights, or soldiers, something from the Code of Drannicus,
"What of Barbarous Races?"

If the barbarous races fail to come to the light of the True Faith, and are exterminated in the fire and blood of war, what of it? If they be truly of pure soul, and have prostrated themselves in their heart before the True Gods, then the righteous gods shall recognize them as their souls are released to eternity, and they will be welcomed into Heaven, and be blessed with eternal rewards. Their lives of being born into a vile race shall be forgiven them at that time. After all, this mortal life is not so important. The greatest life is the eternal life to come in the Halls of Heaven with the True Gods. There, in those glorious, righteous halls, is found true reward, peace, and blessing. This wicked world is but a moment in time, and what happens to creatures here is of less importance to what their eternal destiny is. Individuals of such vile races that have foresworn their evil ways will be blessed in the afterlife, as their death was ultimately from the embracement of the evil race about them. They shall then be accounted righteous, and live in eternal glory with all other races who worship the True Gods!"

Simon de Montfort would have liked such an speech from a cleric to his "troops"

Pope Innocent put it shorter "Strike them down, god knows his own."
This cleric maybe lawful, but also evil, he calls not for war and battle but for annihilation.

"Enlightened through experience?"--How so? What do you mean? In my mind, Paladins are not made in a vaccuum. Think of their abilities, their skills, their convictions. Paladins don't just wake up one day thinking, believing, and doing such things. They must be trained, disciplined, and instructed in such. A form of divine blessing and purpose may already be upon them, but that is divine potential, that must be realised and brought to fruition. I don't see paladins just doing all that by themselves, you know

The example per definition, The maid of lotharingen, la pucelle
Jehanne d`arc.
Ignatius from Loyola, stories of Saints let this young soldier choose the church and the formation of the Jesuites.
Franz of Assissi maybe.
Charles de Foucault(right spelling) from an young excessive olayboy, to an monk the ascet in the desert, martyr of faith.
I don´t think enlightment could be taught, only helped to experience.
And all training wouldn`t made a person a paladin, only the chosing/acceptance of the gods.
His powers couldn`t be taught, only given, trained maybe but nothing more,
The same as Wentworth Halkl(Lensmen, Galactic Patrol EE Smith) they couldn`t make Lensmen there only teach them what they must know to survive and do their job.
But if a student hadn`t it, he couldn`t get the Lens.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Hello Sword-dancer! Good to see you!

Sword-dancer wrote:
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Quote:

"Simon de Montfort would have liked such an speech from a cleric to his "troops"

Pope Innocent put it shorter "Strike them down, god knows his own."
This cleric maybe lawful, but also evil, he calls not for war and battle but for annihilation."
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End Quote.




The world of Thandor is a world where the forces of Darkness seek to subjugate and enslave the world for all eternity. All of humanity is threatened by armies of millions of evil humanoids, and hordes of monsters seeking to annihilate all that is good. Within human societies, there are depraved cults of wicked and evil humans that seek to bring human society to it's knees, and usher in an age of apocalpse where the whole world is offered up naked and helpless to the Dark Gods.

It is from this background and in this context that much of humanity and other good races must operate. From such a context, evil monstrous races are not even considered capable of concepts of morality. The vast majority of human philosophical and religious authority, as well as the masses of society, simply don't believe that monstrous evil races are moral free agents. Monstrous evil races, of whatever kind, are not considered to have any rights what so ever. There is no ACLU, nor is there any who scream that the evil races have rights. Such a notion is simply inconcievable to the vast majority of all human societies. That doesn't mean that there are never any humanoids that aren't evil, for they do exist, but the vast majority of humanity doesn't believe such is even possible, let alone likely, including paladins.

Concepts of morality and innocence are considered only possible for humans, and other races considered "Good" or at least believed to be free moral agents. Few would ever even want to question such, because there is no context for such notions to even arise. Why would anyone *want* to believe that such races of humanoids were anything *but* evil? There is no context in history, on a large scale, that is in the public consciousness that such races are not evil, wicked, and depraved.

Again, though, that is from a campaign-point-of-view. As DM, of course there are individuals that aren't evil, but they are quite unusual, and even when they exist, it doesn't mean that the public is aware of it, nor is it expected that they would believe such as being possible. They would think it to be myth, or probably a great deception by the Dark Gods to gain an advantage over the good races. Like everyone else in society, paladins are part of that society, and they don't somehow have access to secret, DM-only notes! They embrace the beliefs of the larger society that they come from, for unless they have personal, direct experience to the contrary, they have no basis or evidence to think otherwise. That would take considerable experience, and luck, but that certainly wouldn't be the experience or knowledge of young paladins, or even paladins that have been fighting against the forces of Darkness for much of their lives. Their experience would reinforce what their culture and society have always claimed and taught to be true and right.

Indeed, Simon De Montforte would be welcomed into the ranks of the faithful!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK