Exexcrucication - a NOBILIS PbP
- Thread starter sophist
- Start date
If I were to declare i was using a lesser creation of empty (which i do automatically, i believe) could i use it in such a manner as to say 'show me clues about this unknown mans motivations and masters'? By 'deleting' the things that stand between Once and the knowledge he seeks (ie, enemies, time, distance, what have you). Now I'm not sure how this would take effect (maybe once would be whipped somewhere else, or maybe he would end up changing the chancel) but it is certainly possible, right?NIce train of thought. Generally I would think that such a feat is very magical. It can be formulated and even thought of (in a way), so I say it is not impossible, but this is not a
mundane use. WHile it might be an interesting irony that your creation is destruction, i'll have to set limits. Mundane might be to created an emtyness where a memory was before,
although even that borders on a major feat (i have to see to that emtpy is neither too weak or strong, so I might allow that).
Further, I'd argue that there does not exist, even in the form of a void, much less a block,
a connection to the 'unkown man's motivation and masters'. No connection is not blocked by things that can be voided (i hope I am not speaking to complicated here).
If you meet a concrete block, say a wall, i think you can create emptyness there.
But you are trying to remove a block on a road that is non-existing.
<Hearing the peasant's prayer>
I am not sure that that works. it would work if the man is your anchor, of course, but I will check up on this in the book. But I am not aware that prayers would work for all chancelfolk.
<creation of time>
Well, strictly speaking it might be possible. However, the issue of precedence raises its head. If I allow this, what keeps one from creating enough time for oneself to win any fight,
or to create enough space to make any chancel endlessly large, or even reverse the time flow to prevent Lucifer's Fall or the slaying of Heaven Gatekeeper? It seems clear to me that if a HG allows meddling with time and space, he has to be very, very careful.
(Excursion: For Kant time and space are trancendentals, i.e. concepts that make experience possible. These are the basic concepts that hold the world together for us.)
It might be problematic to allow manipulation of these things. If I allow time, why not truth?
So I create the truth that my Aspect is higher. Some things, which are nesseary for the succession in the game need immunity to player influence, or things quickly degenerate to
a metagame. Even I, HG, if I wish to tell a story that changes the meaning of the game world - and this is what I am trying to do here - should operate inside/within a framwork of the world.
More directly speaking: No, TIME/SPEACE/(spritual)TRUTH cannot be manipulated and it is highly unlikely that I would accept someone playing these concepts, or creating/destroying them even with Realm. When Realm simulates mastery over other Domains, they must be more concrete.
If you think I sacrifice here too much of the game for having a playable game, I look forward to see your arguments.
Charles Rampant
Adventurer
Oh my god, we are being undermined by THE MEN IN BLACK.
Hahahaha!
/me deletes UFOs
[cough]
Let me know if my actions IC are possible, sophist.
Hahahaha!
/me deletes UFOs
[cough]
Let me know if my actions IC are possible, sophist.
Timeboxer
Explorer
sophist said:
The simple answer, I think, is Miracle Points. Doing this sort of thing is not to be taken lightly, and would be at minimum a Major Creation for anything of importance or significance or breadth, which means that it'll be a constant drain on Miracle Points to do so constantly. Nobilis is a resource allocation system, and it might be a good idea to allow players to spend significant resources to do... well, significant things. But of course even Major Creations have limits, like the number of years that could be traversed, or something.
Also, it might be helpful to keep in mind that in some sense Nobles and Imperators and so on exist outside of time -- since Time is an Estate, and Nobles do not exist in any Estate, then Nobles cannot be affected by time-manipulation unless we're talking artifact-level or Imperator-level. You can certainly manipulate time for your ordinary mortal, and I think Nobilis encourages the mortals-are-as-ants way of thinking about them such that this is possible, but Nobles are not so easily affected.
Oh, I think you're right about the prayer thing, by the way -- only works if you're an Anchor.
Jdvn1
Hanging in there. Better than the alternative.
Well, I've been thinking about what sorts of things I can do in my chancel. I was under the impression that I could do anything that any Noble with a 4 Domain could do. If I were the Duke of Time, what could I do? It seems like most things would be very high level miracles. Could I use a bunch of lesser creations of Time to put more seconds between now and two seconds from now? What other ways could I simulate super speed/instantaneous movement? That would, lengthen my day, it'd seem, which wouldn't seem odd of I were the Duke of Time. I think.
I'm still learning, though, so maybe I'm way off base.
I'm still learning, though, so maybe I'm way off base.
Timeboxer
Explorer
Just as a note -- you can only create physical objects with Realm Creations. Non-physical and abstract objects in a Realm are the products of Change. And Changes always require MP.
You should probably read the bit about Realm miracles and how they differ from Domain miracles -- in the Realm miracle section.
You should probably read the bit about Realm miracles and how they differ from Domain miracles -- in the Realm miracle section.
Well, black suits are generally a sign of power in western societies. Even so far that they constitute the "uniform" of pwer these days. I did not mention any black glasses to push it not too far. There is even some book in cultural studies called "Men in Black" that work outEntsuropi said:
why black is used here and presents the case that blach IS used this way.
If you spend the MPs for a major change, well, there you go. I still feel a bit uncomfortable about this, because you have only a vague description of this man. Essentially you are not only creating a void that is also a path, but aslo seeking the "inflitrator" without you having a clear idea of him. So, if you spend the MPs to make this vastly powerful and unlikely act happen, you can do so. With Domain 5, this should be within your reach.
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These thoughts are still unordered. I see that I really have to look at what the book says. I have however little hope to find a prescription here. These basic balancing and consistency issues need a solution:
Amy and Jdvn1, I can see your points, so will try to be more preceise.
The answer might be indeed to draw a distinct line between minor and major uses,
but where should one draw it? Is one minute a minor creation, or even five? With
that a true king could make a day a hundred times or more longer, using no MPs at
all.
An invading army comes calling just create that Moebius* space to imprison them.
The others have no power over space in my Realm? tough luck, now they're gone
forever. How could any chancel ever fall? Even if there is a noble. just spend enough
MPs to overcome Spirit 5, you don't need them anyway, because there is no path out
of a Moebius space.
((*i think you all know what a Moebius space is???))
Or a fight with an excrucian shard - let's give us ten seconds for each second
the shard has. For each step he can make, our mortal soldier can fire 1000
bullets from his autocannon at him. Mortal 1 shard 0.
So if ten second is too much for minor creations, we come near the point where
it will become neigh useless for non-combat use, or does it?
Look at what TIME STOP in D&D does. It halts time for the caster for d4+1 turns.
Still it is one of the must have spells. Why? Because now you created about 3 or
four spells of mass destruction to blow away almost anything in your way.
Ok, now let's say 3 seconds of time is a major creation. Maybe I can live with
that. Remeber that I cannot set different standards in or out of combat. David
can still make three days out of one if he concentrates almost constantly.
Still a significant feat I'd say with no MPs whatsoever.
But whta's the limit of a major creation, or to be more hard a major change?
If I change a second to a year with maybe 4 MPs, I spend all MPs I have to do it
again. Now I have year to do things in the space others barely blink twice.
Major changes are not even limited in area as minor effects are.
Well, this is only the bare beginning. Imagine the noble of truth.
Blowing all of his MPs in one fell act, he negates the truth of Lord Entropy
existence. If you want a game where a noble can obliterate any other with but
a thought in her chancel, then confict comes down to who can act first.
So if Realm means power over time, space, and truth I see Nobilis becoming a
very different game. The only limit then, to instant obliterations of diverse
kinds are that you can only 8 MPs on one effect?
It would make adventures within the chancel pretty pointless anyway, because well,
you win.
I don't think that some time immunity really helps here. If someone mainpulates time
only for himself or his army, you are not affected anyway by the time manipulation.
What affects you is the effect of the others having the time to create three times
more miracles or physical attacks in the space you only get one. See again TIME
STOP.
Putting these things on a creation scale does indeed tone things down a bit,
but then the question the minor scale rises again. What is enough for 2-4 miracle
points? 5, 10 minutes. And it does not solve the assured obliteration problem
that can arise out of even granting 5 seconds for a minor creation.
And many physicists would argue that time & space are pyhsical "objects". For example
gravity affects space. And if time is nothing physical, one could only affect perception of
it, not objectively dillate time.
+ + + +
Second, I do think I have allowed significant things with expending MPs. Viewing
flashes of the past, portal creation and other things. If you think I am stingy
and miserly, I can't help it.
+++++++
Third for superhuman speed and thinking, there is aspect.
The only solution will be to define bottom up, how to see time and space:
mere concepts, conditions of perception?
or objectivly existing?
how mich time will be a minor use, and a major one?
and so forth ....
Amy and Jdvn1, I can see your points, so will try to be more preceise.
The answer might be indeed to draw a distinct line between minor and major uses,
but where should one draw it? Is one minute a minor creation, or even five? With
that a true king could make a day a hundred times or more longer, using no MPs at
all.
An invading army comes calling just create that Moebius* space to imprison them.
The others have no power over space in my Realm? tough luck, now they're gone
forever. How could any chancel ever fall? Even if there is a noble. just spend enough
MPs to overcome Spirit 5, you don't need them anyway, because there is no path out
of a Moebius space.
((*i think you all know what a Moebius space is???))
Or a fight with an excrucian shard - let's give us ten seconds for each second
the shard has. For each step he can make, our mortal soldier can fire 1000
bullets from his autocannon at him. Mortal 1 shard 0.
So if ten second is too much for minor creations, we come near the point where
it will become neigh useless for non-combat use, or does it?
Look at what TIME STOP in D&D does. It halts time for the caster for d4+1 turns.
Still it is one of the must have spells. Why? Because now you created about 3 or
four spells of mass destruction to blow away almost anything in your way.
Ok, now let's say 3 seconds of time is a major creation. Maybe I can live with
that. Remeber that I cannot set different standards in or out of combat. David
can still make three days out of one if he concentrates almost constantly.
Still a significant feat I'd say with no MPs whatsoever.
But whta's the limit of a major creation, or to be more hard a major change?
If I change a second to a year with maybe 4 MPs, I spend all MPs I have to do it
again. Now I have year to do things in the space others barely blink twice.
Major changes are not even limited in area as minor effects are.
Well, this is only the bare beginning. Imagine the noble of truth.
Blowing all of his MPs in one fell act, he negates the truth of Lord Entropy
existence. If you want a game where a noble can obliterate any other with but
a thought in her chancel, then confict comes down to who can act first.
So if Realm means power over time, space, and truth I see Nobilis becoming a
very different game. The only limit then, to instant obliterations of diverse
kinds are that you can only 8 MPs on one effect?
It would make adventures within the chancel pretty pointless anyway, because well,
you win.
I don't think that some time immunity really helps here. If someone mainpulates time
only for himself or his army, you are not affected anyway by the time manipulation.
What affects you is the effect of the others having the time to create three times
more miracles or physical attacks in the space you only get one. See again TIME
STOP.
Putting these things on a creation scale does indeed tone things down a bit,
but then the question the minor scale rises again. What is enough for 2-4 miracle
points? 5, 10 minutes. And it does not solve the assured obliteration problem
that can arise out of even granting 5 seconds for a minor creation.
And many physicists would argue that time & space are pyhsical "objects". For example
gravity affects space. And if time is nothing physical, one could only affect perception of
it, not objectively dillate time.
+ + + +
Second, I do think I have allowed significant things with expending MPs. Viewing
flashes of the past, portal creation and other things. If you think I am stingy
and miserly, I can't help it.
+++++++
Third for superhuman speed and thinking, there is aspect.
The only solution will be to define bottom up, how to see time and space:
mere concepts, conditions of perception?
or objectivly existing?
how mich time will be a minor use, and a major one?
and so forth ....
Charles Rampant
Adventurer
I looked at the book earlier, and it says 'anything' can be done with a level 9 use of your domain. But the examples were rather... limited. Make a crowd go insane with anger when they were perfectly happy before (emotion), make any mortal weep at a song (music) etc. I would consider the music one, especially, a rather basic power. At the start of the domain section it tells you how to classify as lesser or minor - will this affect the game world? Major. Is it a power the character needs to do constantly as part of his domain? Minor. And so on.
And nobilis did say that combat in nobilis is rather like MAD - Mutally Assured Destruction. By the time you do your thing, the enemy will have done his, and then everyone dies. Which helps noone. So they resort to trickery, social ostracising, and the like to fight their wars against other nobles.
And nobilis did say that combat in nobilis is rather like MAD - Mutally Assured Destruction. By the time you do your thing, the enemy will have done his, and then everyone dies. Which helps noone. So they resort to trickery, social ostracising, and the like to fight their wars against other nobles.