D&D 5E Existentialist Sword and Sorcery

[Yaarel]

You are very right!

How we handle our existentialist crises is what makes our life go in whatever direction it winds up going after those points. Whether we collapse into a sense of abject despair knowing that all of our decisions are ultimately meaningless in a form of paralytic nihilism, or we turn our lives in a different direction, often inwardly to recognize the inherent worth of ourselves against the backdrop of our lives as a structure for personal meaning.

Others flock to religion, seeking an external source of positivity and meaning to the chaos of life and death. And in a fantasy world they can be be assured that that religion is accurate!

And in the case of the Queen of the Black Coast, as you just referenced, hedonism is a marvelous escape from existential crisis! People fling themselves into their lives, into foods when they wish, sex with whom they care for, and no further consideration given toward anything. Which when done on a societal level... hits Robert E Howard's existential corruption through civilization!

When you turn from the person that you were into the person that you will be and lose some important aspect of the true self in the rampant decay into decadence. Because even Conan, with the jeweled crown of Aquilonia weighing heavy upon a troubled brow, is not immune to losing himself and all that he was.

Personally, I view existentialism as failing, when it becomes selfish, being only a cynical "I", even elitist, narcissistic, and contemptuous.

When existentialism remembers that humans are a community existential beings, and encourages others to be free, independent, and self-defining, and to work together as free agents, it becomes healthier.

 

[Blue Orange]

Personally, I view existentialism as failing, when it becomes selfish, being only a cynical "I", even elitist, narcissistic, and contemptuous.

When existentialism remembers that humans are a community existential beings, and encourages others to be free, independent, and self-defining, and to work together as free agents, it becomes healthier.

Well, that's one of the reasons the intellectual vogue turned to collective social movements in the 60s and 70s, but that's another story. (Existentialists were supposed to become politically engaged, though.)

 

[Steampunkette]

Personally, I view existentialism as failing, when it becomes selfish, being only a cynical "I", even elitist, narcissistic, and contemptuous.

When existentialism remembers that humans are a community existential beings, and encourages others to be free, independent, and self-defining, it becomes healthier.

Existentialism isn't really a failing... It's more an understanding of the reality that you exist in, beyond the perspective we largely exist in. That of animal in its environment without understanding the context of its environment in relation to larger scopes.

Nihilism is a form of response to Existentialism. A central philosophical understanding that "Nothing Truly Matters on a Cosmic Scale" but that understanding must have a framework. And that framework can be selfish. "So I'll just do what -I- want", for example. Or "My perspective is the only one that matters because it is the only one I can be certain exists".

The Good Place is an excellent show for introductory understanding of philosophical concepts that actually gets really interesting with a backdrop of a ridiculous situation and wildly irreverent characters. Here's a fun example of a specifically self-deluding hedonistic response to Existential Crisis.

Spoiler: Spoilers for the Good Place season 2!

Existential Crisis:

Hedonistic Response:

Generally speaking, Contemptible. Also relatable. We all know that "Guy" in concept, if not in person. But other forms of Nihilistic response can be very positive. "Nothing Truly Matters on a Cosmic Scale, therefore I cannot view my existence or judge my actions on a cosmic scale and must focus entirely on an interpersonal one to determine my moral identity"

Which is why springing the young and idealistic Freedom Fighter on your slowly compromised Elf Queen is -such- an effective moment of storytelling. As the Queen's perspective shifts from interpersonal right and wrong to the concept of a larger scale of impact to her intentions she's much more likely to give up a lot of that idealism. And confronting her with the younger self, granted it'll probably be allegorical, will press that existential crisis. That "Oh. That's what I used to be... what have I become?" moment.

Which then leads to the response. Does she fling herself into hedonism? Rationalize her "Corrupted" motivations against the larger scale? Vow to change back to the person she was? Abdicate the throne immediately?

It's all very good for storytelling!

Well, that's one of the reasons the intellectual vogue turned to collective social movements in the 60s and 70s, but that's another story. (Existentialists were supposed to become politically engaged, though.)

I wish we could talk about this through the lens of fantasy allegory for use in D&D games, I just can't think of one right now. >_<

 

[Yaarel]

Existentialism isn't really a failing... It's more an understanding of the reality that you exist in, beyond the perspective we largely exist in. That of animal in its environment without understanding the context of its environment in relation to larger scopes.

Nihilism is a form of response to Existentialism. A central philosophical understanding that "Nothing Truly Matters on a Cosmic Scale" but that understanding must have a framework. And that framework can be selfish. "So I'll just do what -I- want", for example. Or "My perspective is the only one that matters because it is the only one I can be certain exists".

The Good Place is an excellent show for introductory understanding of philosophical concepts that actually gets really interesting with a backdrop of a ridiculous situation and wildly irreverent characters. Here's a fun example of a specifically self-deluding hedonistic response to Existential Crisis.

Spoiler: Spoilers for the Good Place season 2!

Existential Crisis:

Hedonistic Response:

Generally speaking, Contemptible. Also relatable. We all know that "Guy" in concept, if not in person. But other forms of Nihilistic response can be very positive. "Nothing Truly Matters on a Cosmic Scale, therefore I cannot view my existence or judge my actions on a cosmic scale and must focus entirely on an interpersonal one to determine my moral identity"

Well, for example, I consider Nietzsche fail. He considers other humans sheep that other existentialists as wolves can prey on. He forgets that each of those "sheep" is also an existential being.

Heh, Nietzsche is my go-to for the Neutral Evil alignment.

Nietzsche annoys me when he defines "good" as "masculine" traits in contrast to "bad" as "feminine" traits.

Which is why springing the young and idealistic Freedom Fighter on your slowly compromised Elf Queen is -such- an effective moment of storytelling. As the Queen's perspective shifts from interpersonal right and wrong to the concept of a larger scale of impact to her intentions she's much more likely to give up a lot of that idealism. And confronting her with the younger self, granted it'll probably be allegorical, will press that existential crisis. That "Oh. That's what I used to be... what have I become?" moment.

Which then leads to the response. Does she fling herself into hedonism? Rationalize her "Corrupted" motivations against the larger scale? Vow to change back to the person she was? Abdicate the throne immediately?

It's all very good for storytelling!

I wish we could talk about this through the lens of fantasy allegory for use in D&D games, I just can't think of one right now. >_<

Idealistic Freedom Fighter versus Elf Queen sounds fun.

 

[aco175]

I saw in another thread about what kind of new world should Wizards make that Sword and Sorcery had the largest vote.

I voted for it myself thinking that a 'conan-type' world would be cool. I view it more as a fun hack and slash that would be more light-hearted than some other games. Maybe I'm feeling for a back to my youth game. I do not think that my group would have any problem with woman in certain compromising situations or savage picts or church fanatics. It can be written so that others can be needing the heroes as well and not just certain groups. I think it could be fun.

 

[Steampunkette]

Well, for example, I consider Nietzsche fail. He considers other humans sheep that other existentialists as wolves can prey on. He forgets that each of those "sheep" is also an existential being.

Heh, Nietzsche is my go-to for the Neutral Evil alignment.

Nietzsche is woefully misunderstood primarily because his sister ignored his wishes and rewrote his philosophy to cater to Nazism.

Nietzsche's -actual- work does say that all men are sheep. That we walk around our dull lives going with the crowd, conforming to the ideas placed before us, with little conscious interest in the creation or morality of those ideas we conform to. The societal structures we pen ourselves into without question or consideration.

Nietzsche's "Ubermensch" is a person who actively questions the structures placed around them, makes their own decisions on that framework, and either adheres to or discards that framework based on their own moral and rational judgement. It is wrong to kill? One must ask why, examine the truth, and come to their own conclusion rather than simply accepting it to be self-evident because others have told you that it is wrong to kill.

Nietzsche still expects you, in this example, to come to the same conclusion that killing is, in fact, morally wrong. But to gain insight and understanding in the world around you, into the structures that you exist in, through that philosophical question. Challenge the world, and accept it as correct when it is so, or incorrect when it is so.

It's meant to be empowering and self-affirming to examine the circumstances of your existence and decide for yourself what they -should- be, and then seek to make that a reality. Instead what is ultimately a lot of "Big n' Manly" descriptions of Navel Gazing got turned into Propaganda.

Which is where the "Wolves" part comes in.

I saw in another thread about what kind of new world should Wizards make that Sword and Sorcery had the largest vote.

I voted for it myself thinking that a 'conan-type' world would be cool. I view it more as a fun hack and slash that would be more light-hearted than some other games. Maybe I'm feeling for a back to my youth game. I do not think that my group would have any problem with woman in certain compromising situations or savage picts or church fanatics. It can be written so that others can be needing the heroes as well and not just certain groups. I think it could be fun.

Hey, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a hack n' slash game! And Swords and Sorcery makes for an easy background for it, for sure.

And it's... a thing... that your group wouldn't have any problem with that. There are a lot of groups out there that wouldn't. But I'd really prefer this thread not turn into a debate on sexism/racism in gaming and media when it's meant to be about using the existential crisis as a DM's tool at a table to help reinforce the classic swords and sorcery pulp fiction feel.

 

[Yaarel]

Nietzsche is woefully misunderstood primarily because his sister ignored his wishes and rewrote his philosophy to cater to Nazism.

Nietzsche's -actual- work does say that all men are sheep. That we walk around our dull lives going with the crowd, conforming to the ideas placed before us, with little conscious interest in the creation or morality of those ideas we conform to. The societal structures we pen ourselves into without question or consideration.

Nietzsche's "Ubermensch" is a person who actively questions the structures placed around them, makes their own decisions on that framework, and either adheres to or discards that framework based on their own moral and rational judgement. It is wrong to kill? One must ask why, examine the truth, and come to their own conclusion rather than simply accepting it to be self-evident because others have told you that it is wrong to kill.

Nietzsche still expects you, in this example, to come to the same conclusion that killing is, in fact, morally wrong. But to gain insight and understanding in the world around you, into the structures that you exist in, through that philosophical question. Challenge the world, and accept it as correct when it is so, or incorrect when it is so.

It's meant to be empowering and self-affirming to examine the circumstances of your existence and decide for yourself what they -should- be, and then seek to make that a reality. Instead what is ultimately a lot of "Big n' Manly" descriptions of Navel Gazing got turned into Propaganda.

Which is where the "Wolves" part comes in.

Hey, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a hack n' slash game! And Swords and Sorcery makes for an easy background for it, for sure.

And it's... a thing... that your group wouldn't have any problem with that. There are a lot of groups out there that wouldn't. But I'd really prefer this thread not turn into a debate on sexism/racism in gaming and media when it's meant to be about using the existential crisis as a DM's tool at a table to help reinforce the classic swords and sorcery pulp fiction feel.

I understand Nietszche. He is wrong.

The reason he is wrong, is because he TREATS some humans as inferior to other humans, which is absurd (self-contradictory) if each human is an existential being.

Here "existential" means lacking any essence. Thus there is nothing that could be higher or lower, among humans.

And his mysogyny only underscores the absurdity.

 

[Steampunkette]

I understand Nietszche. He is wrong.

The reason he is wrong, is because he TREATS some humans as inferior to other humans, which is absurd (self-contradictory) if each human is an existential being.

Here "existential" means lacking any essence. Thus there is nothing that could be higher or lower, among humans.

And his mysogyny only underscores the absurdity.

You're not wrong about his Misogyny. Dude largely considered women Uneducable.

The people Nietzsche considered "Inferior" were based on their willingness to examine their life and come to terms with their own perspectives on law, god, reality, and society on the whole.

The ones he -treated- as inferior were... None. Because he could not know who had or lacked the willingness to examine their life and come to terms with their own perspectives on law, god, reality, and society as a whole.

However "Lacking any essence" is not what Existential means. And changing the definition within a conversation is weird. I kind of assumed you were using Existential as a way to say "Extant" or "Existing" human being through a language barrier. But if it means something different to you, we might be talking about different things.

 

[Yaarel]

You're not wrong about his Misogyny. Dude largely considered women Uneducable.

The people Nietzsche considered "Inferior" were based on their willingness to examine their life and come to terms with their own perspectives on law, god, reality, and society on the whole.

The ones he -treated- as inferior were... None. Because he could not know who had or lacked the willingness to examine their life and come to terms with their own perspectives on law, god, reality, and society as a whole.

However "Lacking any essence" is not what Existential means. And changing the definition within a conversation is weird. I kind of assumed you were using Existential as a way to say "Extant" or "Existing" human being through a language barrier. But if it means something different to you, we might be talking about different things.

Regarding "essence", I am referring to Sartre et al.

There is "nothing" that defines what a person is. A person must invent arbitrarily who one is and what is to matter. Thus is truly free.

This relates to the "self-transcending person" (ubermensch) who cannot accept the pretense of an essence that society tries to reduce a person too.

Yet, Nietzsche himself reduces a "woman" into an objectified essence which is inferior. Nonsense.

 

[Steampunkette]

Regarding "essence", I am referring to Sartre et al.

There is "nothing" that defines what a person. A person must invent arbitrarily what is to matter. Thus is truly free.

I think you might like Existential Comics. Sartre's Radical Freedom comes up a lot!