Exp reward chart is really beginning to annoy me

[Kalendraf]

Request clarification on item saves

A couple of you have posted that items only have to roll if the character rolled a 1 on their save - where is that listed? I've tried to find anything about that in the DMG and PHB previously, but did not locate anything to that effect (natural 1's). Maybe it's errata I'm unaware of (I know both my PHB and DMG are pre-errata printings). I'm essentially running with the rule listed in the books that I've read that states items get the saving throw of their controller or their own whichever is better. So in the case of someone saving, all of their items are safe, but in the case of a fail, then all items exposed to the attack make their own saves using their magical bonuses, etc. I've read about other DM's using this exact method which is how I inferred it from what I read in the books. So I was assuming that since both they and I reached a similar conclusion we must all be correct in that interpretation.

FYI, we've only had a few previous times where item saves have come into play, and prior to this only a few minor scrolls and potions got destroyed. I just assumed that with the relative ease of crafting items and fixing them that this danger to magic items was effectively a balancing factor in 3E. And it helps get across the message that your character is much more than just a collection of their items.

If I'm doing this wrong, please point me to the exact page and paragraph that states otherwise.

 

[King_Stannis]

The chart serves as a good starting point, but I definitely tweak things depending on the actual toughness of the encounter. The way our group works, one player keeps track of the "kills" and then reads them off. That usually jars my memory as to whether it was a cakewalk or whether they REALLY earned their experience for that particular encounter. I do find myself lowering the rewards below the chart's recommended value. But as I said, it gives a good baseline.

 

[jgbrowning]

Re: Request clarification on item saves

A couple of you have posted that items only have to roll if the character rolled a 1 on their save - where is that listed? I've tried to find anything about that in the DMG and PHB previously, but did not locate anything to that effect (natural 1's). Maybe it's errata I'm unaware of (I know both my PHB and DMG are pre-errata printings). I'm essentially running with the rule listed in the books that I've read that states items get the saving throw of their controller or their own whichever is better. So in the case of someone saving, all of their items are safe, but in the case of a fail, then all items exposed to the attack make their own saves using their magical bonuses, etc. I've read about other DM's using this exact method which is how I inferred it from what I read in the books. So I was assuming that since both they and I reached a similar conclusion we must all be correct in that interpretation.

FYI, we've only had a few previous times where item saves have come into play, and prior to this only a few minor scrolls and potions got destroyed. I just assumed that with the relative ease of crafting items and fixing them that this danger to magic items was effectively a balancing factor in 3E. And it helps get across the message that your character is much more than just a collection of their items.

If I'm doing this wrong, please point me to the exact page and paragraph that states otherwise.

PHB 150=Items Surviving after a Saving Throw.


joe b.

 

[Kalendraf]

Charm use

> Charm Person is not powerful enough to make someone get a trusted friend (read: fellow PC) killed

Correct, but in this case, the Ranger's best way to "Protect" the dragon was to try to neutralize or incapacitate the Sorcerer. I asked the player how he intended to protect the dragon, and he chose to attack the Sorcerer! The reasoning was actually fairly sound. First of all, the ranger is not good, and is instead Lawful Neutral (vindictive style). The ranger witnessed the dragon get attacked by the sorcerer after the charm went into effect and no one else even attacked it. He suspected that his full damage would at most only knock him unconscious. Next, both the cleric and one other character were nearby to aid the sorcerer. Also, at that point only the Ranger and Sorcerer had managed to damage the dragon, so the sorcerer was about the only threat in the Ranger's mind. By attacking the sorcerer, the sorcerer would likely have to turn defensive, and either not cast or start casting spells to stop the ranger instead of focusing on the dragon. Together, all those reasons seemed to make pretty good case for the ranger going after the sorcerer. So I allowed the Ranger to do so. The attack hit, and the damage roll was fairly good, but not enough to knock down the sorcerer, and on the next round someone else dispelled the charm. I thought we handled the charm pretty well.

A better option may have been to try grappling with the sorcerer instead, but I didn't consider that nor did the ranger's player when we were playing. In the future, that's probably how I would rule this kind of situation. As it turned out, the attack didn't hurt the party very much and it added to the dramatics of the fight. It would have been interesting to see what happened if the raging barbarian had been charmed instead. In that case, the charmed character might be even more prone to violence than the ranger was.

 

[ced1106]

Does the exp reward chart need to be fixed?

Well, remember that in the olden (or should I say golden!) days, the amount of XP you got depended on how much TREASURE you got from the creature...!

I'm glad that CRs and Levels were based on some rules of thumb: One level per 14 encounters; CR assumes a party of four (?) uses up 1/4 of their resources.

So, for a "tougher than average" combat, and assuming your players didn't do anything stupid (or particularly smart), you could adjust the CR depending on how much player resources (hit points, spells, etc.) they used up.

Likewise, if the PCs think their way out of a situation (one suitable for their level), that's 1/13 their way to the next level.

I think there's a formula you could come up with using these rules of thumb alone, rather than the 4-sig-fig XP charts...


Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^

 

[Psion]

I'm beginning to really dislike the experience chart for rewarding party's for combat.

Then don't use it. I don't. I use the base 75xp per level per hour rule, and tweak it down (50 base), and add bonuses for difficulty of the session (purely a GM call), player ingenuity and roleplaying and meeting goals.

 

[Zenon]

Re: Request clarification on item saves

A couple of you have posted that items only have to roll if the character rolled a 1 on their save - where is that listed

This is in the DMG (pre-errata), but I don't have it with me at the moment to quote pages. I know there is a table nearby it that lists the order that items should be check in, so perhaps the index can help you locate it that way. The name of the Table in the below quote may be the same as the one in the DMG:

Here is the relevant text from the SRD:

Items Surviving after a Saving Throw: Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried and worn are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a character rolls a natural 1 on his saving throw, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). The four items nearest the top on Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks are the most likely to be struck. Determine which four objects are most likely to be struck and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack deals.

The way you are checking for items currently is found under breaking items. From the SRD:

Unattended nonmagical items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they always are affected by (for instance) a disintegrate spell. An item attended by a combatant (being grasped, touched, or worn) receives a saving throw just as if the combatant herself were making the saving throw.

Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item's Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + one-half its caster level. Attended magic items either make saving throws as their owner or use their own saving throws, whichever are better.

Note that the above only comes into effect if the item is the direct target of the spell. Also remember that there are several rules along with the breaking items that reduce damage to an item based on the damage type (ex: Objects take half damage from acid, fire, and lightning attacks. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one- quarter damage to objects. Sonic attacks deal full damage to objects. )

This makes some freaky situations. Let's look at the following, a fighter, his magic greatsword, his normal short sword and a sorcerer casting Disintegrate-

1) The fighter is holding both swords and is himself a target of disintegrate - The fighter rolls the save. If he saves, everything makes it. If he fails, but not by rolling a 1, he turns to dust and all his gear hits the floor. If he rolls the 1, he turns to dust and the gear also then has to save.

2) The fighter is holding both swords and the magic greatsword is targeted with Disintegrate. The sword gets a save, either the objects save or the fighter, whichever is better.

2) The greatsword is on the floor, out of the fighters hand and is hit by Disintegrate. Because it is an unattended amgic item, it gets a save against the spell, but only with it's own modifiers.

3) The fighter is holding both swords, and the normal short sword is targeted by a Disintegrate. The normal short sword gets a save using the fighters save.

4) The normal (non-magic) short sword is on the ground, out of the fighters hand and is the target of Disintegrate. It turns to dust (it is an unattended, non magic item, which means it automatically fails it's save).

Does this help any?

 

[Number47]

Hey, if you let the Ranger decide what he was doing, you didn't do anything wrong. I am all for letting players retain control of their characters after charming.

 

[Kalendraf]

Thanks on the item saves

Looks like I'll have some much relieved players regarding the item saves. I don't think any of them failed with a natural one, so those items didn't actually get destroyed then. That's good news for me too, as I was trying to find an easy place to plant some replacement gear w/o it seeming too obvious. All 6 players and me as DM assumed this was the correct ruling. I'm not sure how we all overlooked that key statement about only on a "1".

It did seem hard to believe how easy items would be getting smoked at higher levels as the DC on spells and breathweapons tends to ramp up making it likely for PC's to fail.

 

[Wicht]

One option in the DMG concerning experience is multiplying the standard experience by some factor to show the encounter was tougher than normal. This is what i normally do with dragons. I multiply the standard experience by two or by one and 1/2.

Of course for encounters that do not challenge the party I give 1/2 experience.