Exp reward chart is really beginning to annoy me

[Kalendraf]

That's close to what I was considering for the dragon. Besides up'ing it to about a CR10, I was also going to factor in some ad-hoc bonus for the environment situation - likely 10 to 25 percent extra. But that still seemed a bit on the low side. Of course it kind of balances out with the experience they got for the cakewalk in the previous room, so it's probably enough.

 

[Ravellion]

I think part of the problem is that low-HD monsters en masse are not as much of a challenge as one higher-HD monster (usually also higher CR). A dragon takes a long time to die, and during that time, its ability to deal out damage doesn't degrade -- even with only 30 HP left (about 20% max) it's still a dragon. Whittling down the 9 previous creatures (wights and gargoyles) to 20% max leaves only 2 creatures, pushovers for the PCs.

However, the CRs do not reflect this. Defeating nine CR 4 creatures is as good, experience point-wise, as defeating a single CR 9 creature even though the combats are not of similar difficulty. That's the problem. I would scale experience points based on the (admittedly subjective) difficulty the PCs have with the combat.

I just started with not using the tables, but it is a godsend to not use them.

But what I really wanted to say is: Good point! I never really looked at it that way, but it makes a lot of sense... still, especially at higher levels, the reverse is true. You re only one save or die spell away from having your whole encounter defeated in one fell swoop.

Rav

 

[Ferret]

http://www.enworld.org/cc/fiend_factory/elc/encounter_calculator.htm

Nuff said, But i'll say some more.

5 CR 4's is classed as easy, dispatch quickly/
1 cr 12(+4 on 8) is VERY hard, pull out all the stops

 

[Agback]

Does the exp reward chart need to be fixed?

G'day

It sounds to me as though your problem was not with the experience reward table so much as with the challenge ratings of monsters. That means that you will probably have trouble designing balanced encounters as well as handing out experience. So switching over to a flat 50 xp times average character level per hour of play, doubled if the player is attentive and entertaining, will not solve your problem.

Regards,


Agback

 

[Kalendraf]

About the calculator

I entered the party (1x8, 3x9, 2x10) and the effective party level shows 10.4

I next entered the critters in the tomb (3 gargoyles plus 6 lizard-wights = 9 CR4 cretures) and the effective encounter level shows 10.3

The comment shows "Challenging" and advice of "Keep on your toes".

The moral here is that there are cases where it just doesn't easily boil down to a simple formula.

 

[Xeriar]

Re: About the calculator

I entered the party (1x8, 3x9, 2x10) and the effective party level shows 10.4

I next entered the critters in the tomb (3 gargoyles plus 6 lizard-wights = 9 CR4 cretures) and the effective encounter level shows 10.3

The comment shows "Challenging" and advice of "Keep on your toes".

The moral here is that there are cases where it just doesn't easily boil down to a simple formula.

There is a large problem with the CRs and how they work out. Upper_Krust and others have done quite a bit of work on this. It is generally observed (and WotC admits this) that dragons deserve significantly higher CRs - generally 2-6.

If you are reasonably confidant that a given CR for an individual creature is accurate, you can measure just how much outnumbering plays a role by squaring the outnumbering factor involved, IE

Your party was outnumbered 1.5 to 1 (9 to 6), so squaring the factor gives 2.25. By WotC's claim of how CR works, this would be CR +2.25, or CR 6-7ish (say for beefy CR 4 or good tactics/situation)

Which results in about 750 XP for your party to split for that encounter.

This still assumes that CRs for individual creatures are accurate, and double power = CR+2.

When numbers besides 4 are involved, you need to factor in the numbers of your party as well (6 people versus 9 is a lot different than 4 versus 9, that would be 2.25^2, or +5 = CR 9, two extra party members drops CR by 3!)

An easier way to think of how this works, take three fighters, level 1, identicle hit points, etc. Now have them fight 2-on-1. Watch them maul the 1 fighter as they get two attacks per round and have double hitpoints. Notice, if you give the solo fighter double hitpoints, he will still usually get mauled, because he only gets one attack in. Now, give him two attacks per round, or give him quadruple HP, and you have an equal battle...

Anyway, if you want to balance the numbers, use the above function - it's been used in war games estimates for decades.

 

[Joshua Randall]

especially at higher levels, the reverse is true. You're only one save or die spell away from having your whole encounter defeated in one fell swoop.

True, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Most high level monsters have substantial spell resistance, or at least a very high Will save. Still, every once in a while your PCs will get lucky and blow away the dragon before it can beat them up. So what? That balances out the times that their equipment gets melted.

I don't mind if the PCs easily defeat an enemy as long as they're having fun. If I have set up the enemy as the culmination of months of adventuring, I will give it some ways to avoid the common "save or die" spells.

 

[Kalendraf]

Blame the Index!

Well, I figured out why I never saw the item saving throw information on page 150 of the Player's Handbook. It's not referenced very well in the Index at the back of the book.

When I and my players initialed looked this up, we hunted for information regarding "Item Saving Throws" or "Saving Throws for Items". There's no entry under "I" for item saves, but there is an entry under "Saving Throws" for Objects which directs you to page 136. Just below that is Saving Throws against spells on pg 150, but I'm sure all of our eyes were drawn to 136 and we just headed there. There's no mention on pg 136 about the "natural 1" issue and if you only consider the information on that page, you'd likely come to the same ruling as I did.

I bet there's a lot of fellow DM's that have been looking for this information and assumed pg 136 was the only information about item saving throws and as a result reached the same conclusion I origionally did. I would have appreciated it if the Saving Throw for Objects had listed both pg 136 and pg 150. That would have saved a lot of time and grief.

 

[nopantsyet]

I think that the dragon CRs are based on the assumption that the dragon is hog-tied and piss-drunk. I think any well-played dragon should be 1.5-2x the listed CR.

That aside for the moment, I have found that a slight alteration the the calculations makes a big difference. Average party level is completely wrong for parties of <>4 characters. You could have 1 or 100 lvl10 chars and it's still average party level 10.

That's because everything is based on the assumption that it is an iconic party of four. So add up the levels and divide by four. (8+9+9+9+10+10=55, 55/4=13.75) An average party level of 13-14 brings the first encounter into better perspective.

And if you double the CR8 to CR16, that's 2-3 levels above the party depending on how you round. That should be a knock-down, drag-out fight.

 

[Gunslinger]

Charm person can take out parties. This was made painfully obvious to our group when we use premade(not by us) characters for a run through Undermountain. Half of the party was LG, the other half CE, we all woke up in a room together and tried to work togther to make it out alive. A couple spirit Nagas come along, and a few charm person's later the party is killing each other. A good cleric survived, only to have the Nagas come back and fireball the room. Thats why you don't play parties with radically different alignments...