Expanded ECL rules!

[CRGreathouse]

Okay, I think you've lost me completely with what you're trying to compare here. A Level 20 Fighter won't have ANY Epic feats, but if you give him Epic feats as innate abilities, it will raise the ECL. Also, these Epic powers have no prerequisites.

I'm using the same example I've used all along.

Possible, but not probable, not if you give useful Epic powers to the Level 20 Fighter. From your first example, let's throw out the bonuses to save. We'll give four Epic feats to the Level 20 Fighter as innate powers: Overwhelming Critical, Epic Toughness, Fast Healing, and Improved Manyshot. He needs none of the prerequisites for these powers. This character will be ECL 28.

Aren't some of these 3-point feats?

Regardless, the comparison was with Epic Toughness (as written) , Epic Prowess, and two other feats. This makes the characters comparable - the more different they are, the harder they are to compare.

Right now, the characters are 7 ECLs apart (like a Wiz10 and a Wiz17) and 3 "CRs" apart (like an imp and a troll). That sounds pretty big to me!

If you don't accept that 7 ECLs is far apart, compare the Ftr20 to the equal-ECL Ftr29:
+5 epic attack bonus
+4 epic save bonus
4 fighter epic feats
3 generic epic feats
+2 to ability score(s)

Finally, and I hate to say this, do you claim that ECL 22 and ECL 29 aren't that far off? Somehow a system that's only accurate +/- 30% doesn't seem that revolutionary.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

UK came of with a great thing in Asgard 6 as part of his system for the Immortal's Handbook, and I use that system myself.

I appreciate the love!

That system, however, only takes into account Level, HD, static SA and SQ, and Divine Rank.

...and additional appendages.

The update also has rules for the NPC classes (as S'mon mentioned in another thread here); Scaling Ability Scores and Size.

After much thought, I have expanded upon UK's guidelines from Asgard 6 in order to come up with a more comprehensive system that takes ALL things into account, including ability acores and varying levels of power for SA and SQ.

Like I said I already have ability scores accounted for.

I think messing with 'varying levels of power' for SA and SQ goes someway to destroy the simplicity of the system.

This is a work in progress, and I submit it for the approval of all here, including and especially UK, who I hope considers adopting these expanded guidelines (especially after we finish our little test to determine the ECL of Divine Ranks).

I'm not convinced your changes are valid, in fact I think they are detrimental to the system.

Try working out some examples to see what I mean!

Determining ECL:

+1 ECL per Class Level
+1 ECL per +1 CR increase of a Template

Okay so far.

+10 ECL for Divine Rank 0
+20 ECL for Divine Rank 1
+4 ECL per Divine Rank over Divine Rank 1

I'll convince you of this error come Monday.

+1 ECL/Hit Die for Dragons and Outsiders

Incorrect.

Dragons and Outsiders may have good saves and base attack bonus but they lack the myriad options and abilities of the character classes.

+3 ECL/4 Hit Dice for Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Shapechangers
+1 ECL/2 Hit Dice for Aberrations, Elementals, Fey, Giant, Humanoids, Undead (except for Skeletons and Zombies)
+2 ECL/5 Hit Dice for Beasts
+1 ECL/4 Hit Dice for Animals, Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead (Skeletons and Zombies), Vermin

I am sure you have made a number of changes here - almost exclusively for the worst.

You really should try giving examples why you are right for any changes you plan to make!?

+1 ECL per +4 total bonus to ability scores, not counting +1/4 Hit Dice or Levels, minimum +1 (i.e. an athach has Str 27, Dex 12, Con 21, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 6, which constitutes Str +16, Dex +2, Con +10, Int -4, Wis +2, Cha -4, or a total of +22 to ability scored for +5 to ECL)

Far too generous an increase in ECL!

I suggest +1/2 ECL per +5 Ability Points.

+1 ECL per SA or SQ (except as noted below)
+2 ECL for powerful SA or SQ
+2 ECL for Epic SA or SQ (i.e. a normal ability that does something similar to an Epic Feat or Epic Power)
+3 ECL for powerful Epic SQ or SQ (i.e. an ability that does something similar to a very powerful Epic Feat or Epic Power, such as a creature with Great Reflection or Superior Multiweapon Fighting)
+3 ECL for Blindsight
+1 ECL per 20/+2 Damage Reduction (minimum +1)
+1 ECL per 10 Fast Healing or Regeneration (minimum +1)
+1 ECL per 20 Resistance to Energy, per instance, total minimum +1 ECL (i.e. Fire Resistance 20 would be ECL +1, Fire Resistance 40 would be ECL +1, Fire and Cold Resistance 10 would be +1, Fire and Cold Resistance 20 would be +2, etc.)
+1 ECL for Spell Resistance, +1 ECL per 5 Spell Resistance over 20
+1 ECL per +4 Turn Resistance
+1 ECL per Energy Immunity
+1 ECL per attack after four attacks (i.e. if a creature gets 100 attacks, it gets +96 ECL)
+1 ECL per 20 AC over AC 20
+1 ECL per 100% increase in movement over standard movement based on size
+(Creature's Hit Dice ECL Modifier) if the creature can summon more of its own kind, multipled by the number of times per day it may summon (i.e. a Hecatoncheires can summon another of its kind, so it receives +52 ECL because it is intially ECL +52 for being an Outsider)

Again far too generous (for everything - notably the Summoning ability; thats bonkers).

Explain all changes with examples.

The beauty of my initial system was its simplicity.

Also I don't think rating abilities for their intrinsic power is justified.

For the purposes of this system, ECL equals CR in all cases. For CRs over 20, use the following table, borrowed from UK's article in Asgard 6:


ECL --- CR
1-20 --- +1/Level
21-40 --- +1/2 Levels
41-80 --- +1/4 Levels
81-160 --- +1/8 Levels
161-320 --- +1/16 Levels


This format can be continued indefinitely as ECL and CR increases.

That looks familiar!

Anyway, these are my expanded ECL/CR rules. What do you all think? What are your thoughts on this, UK?

I think you are tinkering unnecessarily. The system itself has scope for expansion (I have added some features since its inception myself) but revisions need to be outlined in detail with examples before consideration.

 

[Anubis]

The update also has rules for the NPC classes (as S'mon mentioned in another thread here); Scaling Ability Scores and Size.

Like I said I already have ability scores accounted for.

Where can I find this? I took everything from Asgard 6.

I think messing with 'varying levels of power' for SA and SQ goes someway to destroy the simplicity of the system.

Trading balance for simplicity is, I believe, a bad thing. Really powerful abilities like damage reduction 100/+10 should be more powerful than far weaker things like darkvision and SR 15.

I'm not convinced your changes are valid, in fact I think they are detrimental to the system.

Try working out some examples to see what I mean!

I did that, using the Hecatoncheires as the basis for my changes. I tried to work it out to be the same CR by this system. After these changes, it comes up as CR 56. Using your system alone, the Hecatoncheires works out to be about CR 25, which is insand, there is no way characters below Level 100 could take one of them things.

I'll convince you of this error come Monday.

We'll see.

Incorrect.

Dragons and Outsiders may have good saves and base attack bonus but they lack the myriad options and abilities of the character classes.

Ya' think? I think they have MORE powers than PCs of a similar level. Between breath weapons, damage reduction, SR, summoning, and wicked spell-like abilities . . .

I am sure you have made a number of changes here - almost exclusively for the worst.

You really should try giving examples why you are right for any changes you plan to make!?

An ogre works out to be ECL 3 under this system. A hell hound is ECL 6.

Far too generous an increase in ECL!

I suggest +1/2 ECL per +5 Ability Points.

For some SAs and SQs, you're right, and I intend to make the change. For ability scores, however, I simply extrapolated things as they seem to be in the MM.

Again far too generous (for everything - notably the Summoning ability; thats bonkers).

Explain all changes with examples.

Hecatoncheires. Need I say more? Check out what that thing can do. It's THE most powerful thing in the ELH by far.

The beauty of my initial system was its simplicity.

Also I don't think rating abilities for their intrinsic power is justified.

Why not? Some powers are more useful than others as innate abilities! I don't rate casting Light at will the same as casting Meteor Swarm at will .

That looks familiar!

It should! As I said, that's taken directly from your article. I didn't change anything there. Not yet at least.

I think you are tinkering unnecessarily. The system itself has scope for expansion (I have added some features since its inception myself) but revisions need to be outlined in detail with examples before consideration.

Apply it to the ELH, and you'll quickly see the point behind these changes. Iwent from a system that gets broken at high levels to one that actually works only at high levels at its base, I think.

Show us your expanded system, and we can test that hypothesis. I'm in the middle of trying to make characters for my campaign, and it's very important to figure this out quickly. There must be a system that works at all levels. Using your system as-is, though, makes the ELH monsters far too powerful.

 

[Anubis]

Could you also explain the reasoning behind giving creatures wealth by ECL instead of character level? Why would an ogre, at Level 1, start with the wealth of a higher level?

 

[Anubis]

Expanded ECL rules! (Revised)

Okay, here are my revised rules. I didn't follow all of your suggestions, UK, but I think whereas I put the ECL too high, you put the ECL too low. I'll take your word on some things, UK, but I think more testing is needed.

Determining ECL:

+1 ECL per Class Level
+1 ECL per +1 CR increase of a Template

+10 ECL for Divine Rank 0
+20 ECL for Divine Rank 1
+4 ECL per Divine Rank over Divine Rank 1

+4 ECL/5 Hit Dice (80%) for Dragons and Outsiders
+3 ECL/5 Hit Dice (60%) for Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Shapechangers
+1 ECL/2 (50%) Hit Dice for Aberrations, Elementals, Fey, Giant, Humanoids, Undead (except for Skeletons and Zombies)
+2 ECL/5 (40%) Hit Dice for Beasts
+1 ECL/5 (20%) Hit Dice for Animals, Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead (Skeletons and Zombies), Vermin

+1/-1 ECL per +4/-4 total bonus to Strength, +8/-8 total bonus to Dexterity or Constitution, and +16/-16 total bonus to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, minimum +1/-1 per grouping (i.e. an athach has Str 27, Dex 12, Con 21, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 6, which constitutes Str +16 for +4 ECL, Dex +2 and Con +10 for a +12 total for +1 ECL, Int -4, Wis +2, and Cha -4 for a -6 total for -1 ECL, giving the Athach ECL +4 total)

+3 ECL for Blindsight
+1/2 ECL per 10/+1 Damage Reduction (minimum +1)
+1/2 ECL per 10 Fast Healing or Regeneration (minimum +1)
+1/2 ECL per 10 Resistance to Energy, per instance, total minimum +1 ECL (i.e. Fire Resistance 20 would be ECL +1, Fire Resistance 40 would be ECL +1, Fire and Cold Resistance 10 would be +1, Fire and Cold Resistance 20 would be +2, etc.)
+1 ECL for Spell Resistance, +1 ECL per 10 Spell Resistance over 20
+1 ECL per +4 Turn Resistance
+1 ECL per Energy Immunity
+1 ECL per appendage over two
+1/2 ECL per 10 natural armor
+1/2 ECL per 50% increase in movement over standard movement based on size
+(Creature's Hit Dice ECL Modifier) if the creature can summon more of its own kind, multipled by the number of times per day it may summon (i.e. a Hecatoncheires can summon another of its kind, so it receives +52 ECL because it is intially ECL +52 for being an Outsider)

SAs and SQs not covered should be rated based on power, from +1 ECL per 2 SAs or SQs to +2 ECL per SQ or SQ, depending on the power of the SA or SQ. Strengths and weaknesses balance and cancel each other out.

For the purposes of this system, ECL equals CR in all cases. For CRs over 20, use the following table, borrowed from UK's article in Asgard 6:


ECL --- CR
1-20 --- +1/Level
21-40 --- +1/2 Levels
41-80 --- +1/4 Levels
81-160 --- +1/8 Levels
161-320 --- +1/16 Levels


This format can be continued indefinitely as ECL and CR increases.

Anyway, these are my revised expanded ECL/CR rules. What do you all think? What are your thoughts on this, UK?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello mate!

Where can I find this? I took everything from Asgard 6.

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23438

Trading balance for simplicity is, I believe, a bad thing.

True...except that I haven't traded balance.

Really powerful abilities like damage reduction 100/+10 should be more powerful than far weaker things like darkvision and SR 15.

Not necessarily.

If you look at most monsters variable special abilities (Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction) are generally commensurate with challenge rating.

The only problem is assigning abilities outside the power bracket.

ie. Give an Ogre DR100/+10 makes it incredibly tough. But is it any less suceptible to a 1st-level Sleep spell...no.

I did that, using the Hecatoncheires as the basis for my changes. I tried to work it out to be the same CR by this system. After these changes, it comes up as CR 56.

Which is totally wrong (at least if you're using my system where CR56 is encroaching upon Overgod power).

Using your system alone, the Hecatoncheires works out to be about CR 25, which is insand, there is no way characters below Level 100 could take one of them things.

Your not using my system correctly.

Hecatonchiere:
52 Outsider Hit Dice = ECL +39
Abomination traits (Quasi-deity power) = ECL +14
8 Special Abilities = ECL +4
98 additional arms (additional heads have no bearing to its abilities) = ECL +49

Total ECL +106 = CR 43

We'll see.

Thats the spirit!

Ya' think? I think they have MORE powers than PCs of a similar level. Between breath weapons, damage reduction, SR, summoning, and wicked spell-like abilities . . .

Thats why you add ECL for special abilities.

An ogre works out to be ECL 3 under this system. A hell hound is ECL 6.

Well the Ogre looks right but the Hell Hound is too powerful. Try CR4.

Work me out the Pit Fiend; Tarrasque; Great Wyrm Red Dragon and Solar using your revised system and I think you will see its obvious failings.

For some SAs and SQs, you're right, and I intend to make the change. For ability scores, however, I simply extrapolated things as they seem to be in the MM.

Test things before finalising your decisions.

Hecatoncheires. Need I say more? Check out what that thing can do. It's THE most powerful thing in the ELH by far.

Not quite, its second best.

Why not? Some powers are more useful than others as innate abilities! I don't rate casting Light at will the same as casting Meteor Swarm at will .

Given certain circumstances though one would be more useful than the other.

It should! As I said, that's taken directly from your article. I didn't change anything there. Not yet at least.

I was only messin' about this.

I went from a system that gets broken at high levels to one that actually works only at high levels at its base, I think.

Tread carefully mate!

Show us your expanded system, and we can test that hypothesis.

The NPC classes are explained in the other thread.
Ability Scores +1/2 per 5 ability scores.
Size increase +1 1/2 per size increase.

I'm in the middle of trying to make characters for my campaign, and it's very important to figure this out quickly. There must be a system that works at all levels.

There is - I created it!

Using your system as-is, though, makes the ELH monsters far too powerful.

Not if you use it properly.

 

[Anubis]

Not necessarily.

If you look at most monsters variable special abilities (Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction) are generally commensurate with challenge rating.

EXACTLY MY POINT. Since you extrapolate CR FROM ECL, then the abilities should fit, and be accounted for in those calculations.

The only problem is assigning abilities outside the power bracket.

ie. Give an Ogre DR100/+10 makes it incredibly tough. But is it any less suceptible to a 1st-level Sleep spell...no.

A sleeping indestructable ogre is still an indestructable ogre.

Not quite, its second best.

What, then, do you consider most powerful?

Given certain circumstances though one would be more useful than the other.

Name a SINGLE circumstance where Light would be more useful than Meteor Swarm, overall, to where it deserves as much an increase in ECL?

Also, what about two creatures, one who could use Fireball at will, the other could use Meteor Swarm at will. You honestly think they should both get the same ECL adjustment?

I was only messin' about this.

Ah.

Tread carefully mate!

Sorry, that wasn't a shot at you, that was a shot at the core system. I merely felt you hadn't done enough to balance the Epic Level monsters, but that statement was nonetheless directed at the core rules.

The NPC classes are explained in the other thread.
Ability Scores +1/2 per 5 ability scores.
Size increase +1 1/2 per size increase.

I'll take a look. Meanwhile, lemme know what you think of my revised edition.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Re: Expanded ECL rules! (Revised)

Okay, here are my revised rules.

Ah, vastly improved! If you don't mind, I will address a few tricky points of your system.

Don't get me wrong, though; I think this system generally 'works'
(respectfully, unlike your previous system).

+1/2 ECL per 10/+1 Damage Reduction (minimum +1)
+1/2 ECL per 10 Fast Healing or Regeneration (minimum +1)
+1/2 ECL per 10 Resistance to Energy, per instance, total minimum +1 ECL (i.e. Fire Resistance 20 would be ECL +1, Fire Resistance 40 would be ECL +1, Fire and Cold Resistance 10 would be +1, Fire and Cold Resistance 20 would be +2, etc.)

These shouldn't scale linearly. On first level, DR 10/+1 is (perhaps) worth more than +1 ECL, but on 50th level DR 40/+4 isn't worth 2 character levels!

+1 ECL for Spell Resistance, +1 ECL per 10 Spell Resistance over 20

By 40th level, SR 30 is worth a lot less than +2 ECL. (Heck, SR 45 is near-useless!)

+1 ECL per Energy Immunity

Fire resistance 40 is worth more than fire immunity?

+1/2 ECL per 10 natural armor

Again, I think this should scale. A human (ECL +0) with 10 natural armor is more than ECL +1.

 

[Anubis]

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23438

Actually, I was asking where your expanded ECL rules could be found.

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: Expanded ECL rules! (Revised)

These shouldn't scale linearly. On first level, DR 10/+1 is (perhaps) worth more than +1 ECL, but on 50th level DR 40/+4 isn't worth 2 character levels!

*snip*

By 40th level, SR 30 is worth a lot less than +2 ECL. (Heck, SR 45 is near-useless!)

*snip*

Fire resistance 40 is worth more than fire immunity?

*snip*

Again, I think this should scale. A human (ECL +0) with 10 natural armor is more than ECL +1.

Hmmm . . . Very good points.

I know what the problem. I created these expansions based on the possibility of giving weaker characters greater power, such as if a DM wanted to be funny and give an ogre damage reduction 40/+4 and SR 40. (Hey, it could happen!)

Then again, by Level 40, +1 ECL isn't worth much either, so perhaps it still works.

Either way, the fire resistance/fire immunity point was more than valid. In fact, I'm surprised I let that slip past me!

Unfortunately, I see no way to extrapolate these numbers into something that works at all levels of power without making a variable system. Lemme think on this a bit . . .

Some of the static powers work in my system as-is, but the abilities that scale are the true problem here. Lemme try again.