Expanded ECL rules!

[Anubis]

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OK, fine. The Ftr22 is not unilaterally more powerful, since he must spend two non-epic feats. He still gets their benefit (they stack with EWF & WES), and they're not uncommon choices.

I think the real problem is that things like Epic Weapon Focus aren't truly "Epic". Powerful, yes, but not as powerful as other Epic abilities.

I believe my system is very well done, but no, it's not perfect per say. No system could possibly be perfect. Even I don't follow it 100% if I feel there's an imbalance, just see my Saiyan for an example of how I break my own rules.

It IS however, a damn good guideline. Also, it works MUCH better at truly Epic levels than at lower levels, again as seen by my Saiyan. Using my system, the Hecatoncheires comes out to, I believe, CR 56, making it a challenge to a party of four characters of Levels 256-271, which works out pretty damn well I think.

Another problem, however, is that the breakdown of CR after Level 20 can only be slowed down, not prevented, even by UK's rules.

Would UK care to comment on all of this?

 

[CRGreathouse]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Expanded ECL rules!

I think the real problem is that things like Epic Weapon Focus aren't truly "Epic". Powerful, yes, but not as powerful as other Epic abilities.

OK, replace them with any other nopn-3 point epic feats. The comparison remains the same - this was just a convenient example.

I believe my system is very well done, but no, it's not perfect per say. No system could possibly be perfect. Even I don't follow it 100% if I feel there's an imbalance, just see my Saiyan for an example of how I break my own rules.

Saiyan? What's that? Do you have a link? I'd love to see it.

Still, showing a (near-)unilaterally weaker character to be 3 times stronger strikes me as more than near-perfect.

It IS however, a damn good guideline. Also, it works MUCH better at truly Epic levels than at lower levels, again as seen by my Saiyan. Using my system, the Hecatoncheires comes out to, I believe, CR 56, making it a challenge to a party of four characters of Levels 256-271, which works out pretty damn well I think.

Are you saying that level 60 characters wouldn't have a realistic chance? I beg to differ. I wasn't a playtester, but I think I'd notice if it took 200 more levels than I had to defeat a character.

Another problem, however, is that the breakdown of CR after Level 20 can only be slowed down, not prevented, even by UK's rules.

I think this is due mainly to the diverging specialties of groups. It's unavoidable as characters become more diverse, I think; epic levels just make it easier and thus more of a problem. CRs get whacked well before epic levels with unbalanced groups (all rogues, for example). THG's "Holier Than Thou" etc. sidebars are an interesting way to handle this, though they, too, would only prolong the inevitable.

Would UK care to comment on all of this?

I sure hope so. I'd love to see what he thinks!

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Expanded ECL rules!

OK, replace them with any other nopn-3 point epic feats. The comparison remains the same - this was just a convenient example.

Improved Manyshot, Overwhelming Critical, Fast Healing

Saiyan? What's that? Do you have a link? I'd love to see it.

Tell me you did NOT just say that . . . You did NOT just ask what a Saiyan is, did you? It's a deadly sin never to watch the series by Akira Toriyama known as DRAGONBALL . . .

Go to the Saiyans and Tyranids threat here:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22743

Still, showing a (near-)unilaterally weaker character to be 3 times stronger strikes me as more than near-perfect.

Well, give the dude some good Epic powers for those ECLs and it's a different story. See above.

Are you saying that level 60 characters wouldn't have a realistic chance? I beg to differ. I wasn't a playtester, but I think I'd notice if it took 200 more levels than I had to defeat a character.

Honestly, I have no clue, but that is what UK's rules would suggest if you leave the monster at CR 57. UK, perhaps you could step in?

I think this is due mainly to the diverging specialties of groups. It's unavoidable as characters become more diverse, I think; epic levels just make it easier and thus more of a problem. CRs get whacked well before epic levels with unbalanced groups (all rogues, for example). THG's "Holier Than Thou" etc. sidebars are an interesting way to handle this, though they, too, would only prolong the inevitable.

Who knows?

 

[CRGreathouse]

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Improved Manyshot, Overwhelming Critical, Fast Healing

That's three feats, you only get two. Let's choose IM and Fast Healing. The Ftr22 could choose these instead of his two epic feats. The comparison still holds.

Tell me you did NOT just say that . . . You did NOT just ask what a Saiyan is, did you? It's a deadly sin never to watch the series by Akira Toriyama known as DRAGONBALL . . .

Sorry, I don't watch Dragonball. The name meant nothing to me. I have heard of Dragonball, though, even if I've never seen it and never head of (a?) Saiyan.

Well, give the dude some good Epic powers for those ECLs and it's a different story. See above.

You don't get it.

The epic fighter has the same number of epic feats, so they can be paired 1:1. Whatever the Ftr20 gets, the Ftr22 can match.

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Expanded ECL rules!

That's three feats, you only get two. Let's choose IM and Fast Healing. The Ftr22 could choose these instead of his two epic feats. The comparison still holds.



Sorry, I don't watch Dragonball. The name meant nothing to me. I have heard of Dragonball, though, even if I've never seen it and never head of (a?) Saiyan.



You don't get it.

The epic fighter has the same number of epic feats, so they can be paired 1:1. Whatever the Ftr20 gets, the Ftr22 can match.

If you only give the Level 20 Fighter two Epic powers, as opposed to the four you gave him in your initial post, the character is only ECL 24 (CR 22), compared to the Level 22 Fighter who will be ECL 22 (CR 21). The Level 20 Fighter will still be slightly more powerful, and I think rightfully so, seeing as he has spare feats.

Plsu, you're comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing a supposed ECL 24 with an ECL 22 on a one-on-one basis. Let's put their CRs to the test.

One is CR 22, the other CR 21. How would the Level 20 Fighter with Epic powers fare against a party of Level 24 characters (Party CR 22)? Would they use 25% of their resources to win? I think yes.

Now the other . . . CR 21. How would he fare against a party of Level 22 characters? Still 25% of resources to win? Of course.

I do welcome the questioning, however. More likely to find holes that way.

 

[CRGreathouse]

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If you only give the Level 20 Fighter two Epic powers, as opposed to the four you gave him in your initial post, the character is only ECL 24 (CR 22), compared to the Level 22 Fighter who will be ECL 22 (CR 21). The Level 20 Fighter will still be slightly more powerful, and I think rightfully so, seeing as he has spare feats.

I'm giving the Ftr20 four epic feats, but two are used to make up for weaknesses compared to the Ftr22 - Epic Prowess for the EAB difference, and Epic Toughness for the HD/hp difference. Both of these leave the Ftr22 slightly better off.

The Level 20 Fighter will still be slightly more powerful, and I think rightfully so, seeing as he has spare feats.

He does not. Every feat he takes is matched by the Ftr22.

Plsu, you're comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing a supposed ECL 24 with an ECL 22 on a one-on-one basis. Let's put their CRs to the test.

One is CR 22, the other CR 21. How would the Level 20 Fighter with Epic powers fare against a party of Level 24 characters (Party CR 22)? Would they use 25% of their resources to win? I think yes.

Now the other . . . CR 21. How would he fare against a party of Level 22 characters? Still 25% of resources to win? Of course.

I'm not talking about CR, I'm talking about ECL. The ECLs are 22 for the Ft22 and 29 for the Ftr20, by your formulae, as outlined in my first post.

 

[Anubis]

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I'm giving the Ftr20 four epic feats, but two are used to make up for weaknesses compared to the Ftr22 - Epic Prowess for the EAB difference, and Epic Toughness for the HD/hp difference. Both of these leave the Ftr22 slightly better off.



He does not. Every feat he takes is matched by the Ftr22.



I'm not talking about CR, I'm talking about ECL. The ECLs are 22 for the Ft22 and 29 for the Ftr20, by your formulae, as outlined in my first post.

Problem is that the ECL 29 comes from having FOUR Epic powers. You then told me I should only have two, which would drop the ECL to 24. Either way, since ECL is how you determine CR, that is how you must compare them, by their relative CRs.

Basically, for the ECL 29 character, he gets four FREE Epic powers, along with the normal number of feats. The ECL 22 Fighter has two Epic feats, but NO free powers at all, he has to spend his feats not only on those feats, but also on the prerequisites, which the ECL 29 character also does not need to do.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Problem is that the ECL 29 comes from having FOUR Epic powers. You then told me I should only have two, which would drop the ECL to 24. Either way, since ECL is how you determine CR, that is how you must compare them, by their relative CRs.

Basically, for the ECL 29 character, he gets four FREE Epic powers, along with the normal number of feats. The ECL 22 Fighter has two Epic feats, but NO free powers at all, he has to spend his feats not only on those feats, but also on the prerequisites, which the ECL 29 character also does not need to do.

Ftr20: 4 epic feats: Epic Prowess, Epic Toughness, any 2
Ftr22: 2 epic feats (by class and level): any 2 (same as last 2 above)

Depending on the selection of epic feats, the Ftr22 might be better in all ways than the Ftr20, or might be only better in some ways. No matter what, though, their power level is close - surely not enough to justify a difference of 7 in ECL!

What about a Ftr28 compared to the Ftr20? The ECL is still lower, but the Ftr28 has 7 epic feats, +4 attack bonus, +4 to all saves, and 16-48+ more skill points. How do these compare?

 

[Anubis]

Ftr20: 4 epic feats: Epic Prowess, Epic Toughness, any 2
Ftr22: 2 epic feats (by class and level): any 2 (same as last 2 above)

Okay, I think you've lost me completely with what you're trying to compare here. A Level 20 Fighter won't have ANY Epic feats, but if you give him Epic feats as innate abilities, it will raise the ECL. Also, these Epic powers have no prerequisites.

Also, by my House Rules for the Toughness feat chain, Epic Toughness gives an extra 100 hp, which will also GREATLY effect the outcome. (I have all the previous Toughness feats as prerequisites for Epic Toughness.) Trust me, it's perfectly balanced. Check out that Saiyans and Tyranids thread for the full details. Thus, giving it to his as-is, will definitely be an ECL +2.

A Level 22 Fighter will have only two Epic feats, but will have to have all of the prerequisites for those feats.

Depending on the selection of epic feats, the Ftr22 might be better in all ways than the Ftr20, or might be only better in some ways. No matter what, though, their power level is close - surely not enough to justify a difference of 7 in ECL!

Possible, but not probable, not if you give useful Epic powers to the Level 20 Fighter. From your first example, let's throw out the bonuses to save. We'll give four Epic feats to the Level 20 Fighter as innate powers: Overwhelming Critical, Epic Toughness, Fast Healing, and Improved Manyshot. He needs none of the prerequisites for these powers. This character will be ECL 28.

The Level 22 Fighter will have a total of two Epic feats, nothing more. He also needs all of the prerequisites for those feats. This character is ECL 22. That is a difference of 6 now.

ECL 28 is CR 24, and ECL 22 is CR 21. That puts them within three levels of power of each other, with the Level 20 Fighter coming out on top. Put either of them against a party that would find that specific CR a challenge, and THAT is your comparison.

 

[Knight Otu]

+1 ECL per SA or SQ (except as noted below)
+2 ECL for powerful SA or SQ
+2 ECL for Epic SA or SQ (i.e. a normal ability that does something similar to an Epic Feat or Epic Power)
+3 ECL for powerful Epic SQ or SQ (i.e. an ability that does something similar to a very powerful Epic Feat or Epic Power, such as a creature with Great Reflection or Superior Multiweapon Fighting)
+3 ECL for Blindsight

Personally, I think that these abilities are valued too high by you, Anubis. Upper_Krust used a +1/2 ECL increase for the first category, and I think that this should be kept, andinterpolated for the other abilities I quoted (and possibly others).