Expanded ECL rules!

[Anubis]

I'll work it out eventually...always do!

To be honest, I'm probably putting just as much time into the ECL/CR issue as you are. Why don't we work together? To be perfectly honest, we have been working together on this issue the entire time, we just haven't really been officially acknowledging it. My reasoning is that I have put a lot of work into the issue and would like to help get it right so that everyone can use the rules. I wanna contribute in any way I can, if you'd be willing to work with me on this issue.

There's no conflict here, really. The ECL/CR rules are not an integral part of your Immortal's Handbook, not really, so we can just work on it here in the Forums and post our findings for everyone to see, as I have been.

That was how I was doing things. Damage Reduction; Hardness; Extra Appendages; Size and Spell Resistance are the only modifiers above +1/2 I use (off hand).

After careful consideration, I have figured out that you should NOT take size into consideration. Besides reach, the only thing size gives is a bit of natural AC, AC and attack bonuses/penalties, and some ability score modifiers. Just keep the ability score modifiers to ECL and throw out the size modifier, and you got everything covered.

What I'm saying is, instead of modifying ECL on ability scores AND size, do it on only ability scores. Everything else abotu size balances out on its own and is not worth a modifier.

I agree though that the Dragons need getting right.

They are the problem child for sure. They're weak as-is in the hands of some DMs, but more powerful than their ECLs suggest in the hands of an intelligent DM. Very nasty creatures they are.

 

[Anubis]

I'll work it out eventually...always do!

To be honest, I'm probably putting just as much time into the ECL/CR issue as you are. Why don't we work together? To be perfectly honest, we have been working together on this issue the entire time, we just haven't really been officially acknowledging it. My reasoning is that I have put a lot of work into the issue and would like to help get it right so that everyone can use the rules. I wanna contribute in any way I can, if you'd be willing to work with me on this issue.

There's no conflict here, really. The ECL/CR rules are not an integral part of your Immortal's Handbook, not really, so we can just work on it here in the Forums and post our findings for everyone to see, as I have been.

That was how I was doing things. Damage Reduction; Hardness; Extra Appendages; Size and Spell Resistance are the only modifiers above +1/2 I use (off hand).

After careful consideration, I have figured out that you should NOT take size into consideration. Besides reach, the only thing size gives is a bit of natural AC, AC and attack bonuses/penalties, and some ability score modifiers. Just keep the ability score modifiers to ECL and throw out the size modifier, and you got everything covered.

What I'm saying is, instead of modifying ECL on ability scores AND size, do it on only ability scores. Everything else abotu size balances out on its own and is not worth a modifier.

I agree though that the Dragons need getting right.

They are the problem child for sure. They're weak as-is in the hands of some DMs, but more powerful than their ECLs suggest in the hands of an intelligent DM. Very nasty creatures they are.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

To be honest, I'm probably putting just as much time into the ECL/CR issue as you are. Why don't we work together? To be perfectly honest, we have been working together on this issue the entire time, we just haven't really been officially acknowledging it. My reasoning is that I have put a lot of work into the issue and would like to help get it right so that everyone can use the rules. I wanna contribute in any way I can, if you'd be willing to work with me on this issue.

I thought we were all working on this (hence this thread); not sure what you mean by 'officially acknowledging it'?

There's no conflict here, really. The ECL/CR rules are not an integral part of your Immortal's Handbook, not really, so we can just work on it here in the Forums and post our findings for everyone to see, as I have been.

Well technically the ECL/CR rules are an integral part of the Immortals Handbook - simply that they can be used as standalone material (which was why I initially sent such an excerpt to Asgard magazine).

After careful consideration, I have figured out that you should NOT take size into consideration. Besides reach, the only thing size gives is a bit of natural AC, AC and attack bonuses/penalties, and some ability score modifiers. Just keep the ability score modifiers to ECL and throw out the size modifier, and you got everything covered.

What I'm saying is, instead of modifying ECL on ability scores AND size, do it on only ability scores. Everything else abotu size balances out on its own and is not worth a modifier.

I was only considering the ability score modifiers to size.

+8+4-2=10

They are the problem child for sure. They're weak as-is in the hands of some DMs, but more powerful than their ECLs suggest in the hands of an intelligent DM. Very nasty creatures they are.

Indeed.

 

[Anubis]

I thought we were all working on this (hence this thread); not sure what you mean by 'officially acknowledging it'?

Perhaps I used the wrong words here. What I mean is that it sounds as if you've already decided on what to do and are just laying it out for us to see and comment on, rather than considering it a "work in progress" with all of us contributing in some way.

In other words, it sounds like you have already decided what to do, or if not, you're gonna go it alone, rather than actually considering most of this. (A good example of this is how you completely dismissed my original thoughts on ECL modifiers, even though you have eventually changed your mind on some of those points.)

That's all I was saying. I think the best way to handle this is teamwork.

Well technically the ECL/CR rules are an integral part of the Immortals Handbook - simply that they can be used as standalone material (which was why I initially sent such an excerpt to Asgard magazine).

You may wanna reconsider this, seeing as the ECL rules could be useful for everybody, but only a few people actual run campaigns that use deities. The material is (mostly) unrelated. Only three modifiers in the system actually relate to deities at all. Putting them in the book is great, but these ECL rules are something I would like to someday see in the SRD, if it is at all possible, while you and I both know the bulk of the Immortal's Handbook will never see the SRD because they're already released their rules on the matter. See my point?

I was only considering the ability score modifiers to size.

+8+4-2=10

You were, however, applying them twice. First you modify for the ability scores, and then you modified for size. Basically, you took the raw scores for bigger or smaller creatures and applied the modifier twice for the size modifiers to ability scores.

(i.e. A Solar is Large with Str 28, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 23, Wis 25, Cha 25. You gave it ECL +1 for being Large AND an ECL modifier for Str +18, Dex +10, Con +10.)

If, however, you have handled it as I have, subtracting the size modifiers before determining the modifiers, then there is no problem.

(i.e. A Solar is Large with Str 28, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 23, Wis 25, Cha 25. Change the physical stats to Str 20, Dex 22, Con 16 for the size increase, then give it ECL +1 for being Large and an ECL modifier for Str +10, Dex +12, Con +6.)

This, however, overly complicated matters. You get the same result by simply ignoring size and giving the modifier for ability scores only.

(i.e. A Solar is Large with Str 28, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 23, Wis 25, Cha 25. Give it an ECL modifier for Str +18, Dex +10, Con +10, and you get the same result as in the second example, which is the correct example.)

So see, size doesn't matter in ECL when you count the ability scores.

Indeed.

Dragons may need their own ECL chart.

 

[Anubis]

I have finally solved the Divine Rank ECL problem and can now offer proof as to why Divine Rank 0 is ECL +10, Divine Rank 1 is ECL +20, and so on.

All you need to do is forget about the divine ranks and take a look at the abilities, and judge the abilities on their own. What if a creature had these abilities naturally and had no divine ranks?

Simple!

Divine Rank 0:

Maximum Hit Points, ECL +1
High Speed, ECL +1
Armor Class Modifiers, ECL +1
Transmutation Immunity, ECL +1
Negative Energy Immunity (Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage), ECL +1
Mind-Affecting Effects Immunity, ECL +1
Energy Immunity, ECL +1
Damage Reduction, ECL +1
Resistances, ECL +1
Immortality, ECL +1

That is all of the powers of Divine Rank 0, and add up to ECL +10!

Divine Rank 1:

No Automatic Failure on "1", ECL +1
Immunities (Disease, Poison, Stun, Sleep, Paralysis, Death, Disintegrate), ECL +2
Salient Divine Abilities, ECL +4
Domain Powers/Spell Like Abilities, ECL +1
Portfolio/Create Magic Items, ECL +1
Divine Aura, ECL +1

There are the powers for Divine Rank 1, that when added to the powers of Divine Rank 0, add up to ECL +20!

There ya' go!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Perhaps I used the wrong words here. What I mean is that it sounds as if you've already decided on what to do and are just laying it out for us to see and comment on, rather than considering it a "work in progress" with all of us contributing in some way.

In other words, it sounds like you have already decided what to do, or if not, you're gonna go it alone, rather than actually considering most of this. (A good example of this is how you completely dismissed my original thoughts on ECL modifiers, even though you have eventually changed your mind on some of those points.)

At the time of reading your ideas I thought they were too confusing, I was also convinced my system was perfectly capable as was (and I believe it still is with regards pre epic monsters)...that was up until checking some of the creatures in the Epic Level Handbook upon which time I though a handful of factors needed addressing - though to give every power its own unique modifier still seems too distracting. Simplicity is ever the key.

That's all I was saying. I think the best way to handle this is teamwork.

I'm all for it.

At the moment I am still not convinced changes are valid, like I said I like to leave things for a week or so before returning to it - thats usually when the solution presents itself to me...if anyone wants to have a stab at it during this interim feel free.

You may wanna reconsider this, seeing as the ECL rules could be useful for everybody, but only a few people actual run campaigns that use deities. The material is (mostly) unrelated. Only three modifiers in the system actually relate to deities at all. Putting them in the book is great, but these ECL rules are something I would like to someday see in the SRD, if it is at all possible, while you and I both know the bulk of the Immortal's Handbook will never see the SRD because they're already released their rules on the matter. See my point?

Well I already gave these rules away 'for free'. The IH will contain my final version; I have no qualms about posting that herein as well. If someone wants to help herein or come up with their own ideas thats fine by me.

You were, however, applying them twice. First you modify for the ability scores, and then you modified for size. Basically, you took the raw scores for bigger or smaller creatures and applied the modifier twice for the size modifiers to ability scores.

(i.e. A Solar is Large with Str 28, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 23, Wis 25, Cha 25. You gave it ECL +1 for being Large AND an ECL modifier for Str +18, Dex +10, Con +10.)

If, however, you have handled it as I have, subtracting the size modifiers before determining the modifiers, then there is no problem.

(i.e. A Solar is Large with Str 28, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 23, Wis 25, Cha 25. Change the physical stats to Str 20, Dex 22, Con 16 for the size increase, then give it ECL +1 for being Large and an ECL modifier for Str +10, Dex +12, Con +6.)

This, however, overly complicated matters. You get the same result by simply ignoring size and giving the modifier for ability scores only.

(i.e. A Solar is Large with Str 28, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 23, Wis 25, Cha 25. Give it an ECL modifier for Str +18, Dex +10, Con +10, and you get the same result as in the second example, which is the correct example.)

So see, size doesn't matter in ECL when you count the ability scores.

No. No. No. I see I didn't properly explain this whole ability score thing before.

You don't give an ECL modifier for ability scores! Once you have a monster designed and statted and have the challenge rating. If you THEN want to MODIFY the monster ABOVE its given abilities THEN you apply the modifier!

Solar: Str 28. Doesn't get a modifier because of its strength.

If you give the Solar +20 strength (Str 48) THEN you apply the modifier.

Dragons may need their own ECL chart.

No that would be totally incongruous to what we are trying to do.

 

[Upper_Krust]

You are not a jedi yet!

Hello mate!

I have finally solved the Divine Rank ECL problem and can now offer proof as to why Divine Rank 0 is ECL +10, Divine Rank 1 is ECL +20, and so on.

Go for it...

All you need to do is forget about the divine ranks and take a look at the abilities, and judge the abilities on their own. What if a creature had these abilities naturally and had no divine ranks?

Simple!

Divine Rank 0:

Maximum Hit Points, ECL +1
High Speed, ECL +1
Armor Class Modifiers, ECL +1
Transmutation Immunity, ECL +1
Negative Energy Immunity (Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage), ECL +1
Mind-Affecting Effects Immunity, ECL +1
Energy Immunity, ECL +1
Damage Reduction, ECL +1
Resistances, ECL +1
Immortality, ECL +1

That is all of the powers of Divine Rank 0, and add up to ECL +10!

Divine Rank 1:

No Automatic Failure on "1", ECL +1
Immunities (Disease, Poison, Stun, Sleep, Paralysis, Death, Disintegrate), ECL +2
Salient Divine Abilities, ECL +4
Domain Powers/Spell Like Abilities, ECL +1
Portfolio/Create Magic Items, ECL +1
Divine Aura, ECL +1

There are the powers for Divine Rank 1, that when added to the powers of Divine Rank 0, add up to ECL +20!

There ya' go!

...okay and at what point are you thinking about incorporating the +90 to ability scores?

 

[reapersaurus]

I can't resist.

I think you guys are nuts. <-- my opinion after reading this whole mess.

 

[Anubis]

You don't give an ECL modifier for ability scores! Once you have a monster designed and statted and have the challenge rating. If you THEN want to MODIFY the monster ABOVE its given abilities THEN you apply the modifier!

Solar: Str 28. Doesn't get a modifier because of its strength.

If you give the Solar +20 strength (Str 48) THEN you apply the modifier.

Are you insane?! Are you saying that having a natural strength of 28 doesn't mean anything at all in terms of ECL?! C'mon, you can't possibly believe that! That's insane and completely throws the whole system off!

Think about it . . . Humans are normal, they have 10 in everything. What if you created an ENTIRELY new race that was similar to humans except they had darkvision (instead of an extra feat), had +2 to Listen, Search, and Spot like elves (instead of extra skill points), and had stats of Str 20, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10, giving characters a +10 to strength during character creation? They're similar to humans, but with A LOT of strength . . . Doing it your way, it would have no ECL modifier!

Basically, the problem with doing it THAT way is that you run into the problem of what to do when you create an entirely new race. How do you decide ECL for the new race? How much ECL do you assign for ability scores? Explain THAT.

Seriously, you gotta assign modifiers to ECL for ALL ability scores, as I outlined, otherwise none of it works! THAT'S why your system isn't working out as perfectly as you like!

 

[Anubis]

Re: You are not a jedi yet!

Hello mate!



Go for it...



...okay and at what point are you thinking about incorporating the +90 to ability scores?

I had an answer to this, but while reading these posts, I was tinkering around with some of the numbers . . .

Um, UK, do you realize that the +4 per Divine Rank thing doesn't work? With powers that increase per divine rank AND SDAs, along with powers gained at levels of status . . . Well, let's just say that the numbers get royally goofed up.

Ugh, back to the drawing board . . . UK, I think we need to forget about a specific modifier for divinity and just divine it up into groups of powers. That way, dieties with overlapping powers and increasing powers aren't judged too low.

The +4 per rank standard simply does not work because of the varying levels of power between ranks!

So throw both of those out . . . Dang . . .