Expanded ECL rules!

[CRGreathouse]

I have the Commoner NPC class at 1/3 (round down).

Is this ECL, CR, or both?

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

The hell you say!

I dunno ... Considering how much more useful Str, Dex, and Con are, they should be valued more highly than Int, Wis, and Cha. Even the DMG states this directly.

Str effects how much one can lift and carry, melee attack and damage, and a whole assortment of other things. Dex effects AC, ranged attack, Reflex saves, and much more. Con, even more useful, effects the most important thing of all, hit points, along with Fortitude saves and other such things.

Int, Wis, and Cha are really only useful for Will saves and spellcasters. They has some very limited uses for other classes, but for the most part, these three do very little for the majority of characters.

Ack! Okay, this where I see fit to step in. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution are only superior to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma when you are playing a warrior-type character. When you play a Wizard, Intelligence is key. When you play a Cleric or Druid, Wisdom is key. When you play a Bard or Sorcerer, Charisma is key. It can even be reasoned that Charisma is key for Paladins. That's just under to just over one-half of the 11 core character classes (exactly 50% by my reasoning, having long since converted the Paladin into a prestige class).

My point is simple. All six attributes are equal and should always be treated as such, including Racial Attribute Bonuses, which I have never agreed should trade off two penalties for one Strength bonus. If you think Strength is too powerful all by itself, then do what I (and Upper Krust I just recently discovered) have done. Make Dexterity responsible for the attack bonus, and religate Strength strictly to the purpose of damage and Carrying Capacity.

Okay, rant over. Please continue with the highly significant work that is being done on this thread. Good work overall chaps.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Re: The hell you say!

Okay, this where I see fit to step in. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution more are only superior to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma when you are playing a warrior-type character.

Obviously.

I think the question is "Does a wizard benefit from Int as much as a fighter benefits from Str?". Table 2-7 in the DMG (page 24) suggests not.

Actually, I agree with your point - but wanted to point out that there's basis for differing opinions.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Re: The hell you say!

Make Dexterity responsible for the attack bonus, and religate Strength strictly to the purpose of damage and Carrying Capacity.

Many people agree that Dex is the most important score in the game, closely followed by Str. I don't think that increasing its power is a good idea.

 

[Knight Otu]

My take on the mental ability scores is that they should be treated equally.

Intelligence covers skill points and feats (take a look at the Create a Monster PDF).

Wisdom covers Will saves. These can be very impotant.

Charisma covers several class abilities, and, most important, the save DCs for spell-like abilities.

If a creature doesn't depend much on these things, then I can see why it shouldn't count too much, but it is unlikely anyway to have a high value in this ability, then.

All is of course IMHO.

 

[Knight Otu]

Re: Re: The hell you say!

Many people agree that Dex is the most important score in the game, closely followed by Str. I don't think that increasing its power is a good idea.

This could be offset a bit by making Initiative based off Intelligence.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Re: Re: Re: The hell you say!

This could be offset a bit by making Initiative based off Intelligence.

That would be... curious. Right now that only happens for creatures with no Dex.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi All!

I think I am going to have to side with Sonofapreacherman on this one.

I think every ability score has its place and while constitution; dexterity and strength have the more tangible 'roll-playing' effects, charisma; intelligence and wisdom have the more dramatic 'role-playing' effects. I think this is something that should be considered.

Taken at face value a Hill Giant with +15 Charisma may not have the same immediate impact as one with +15 Strength - however a Hill Giant with a high charisma could have myriad advantages, such as: gaining followers; forging alliances etc.

Remember that the majority of skills are Cha; Int or Wis based.

 

[reapersaurus]

Remember that the majority of skills are Cha; Int or Wis based.

That is misleading as written.
Add them up and compare.
I did once before - it was quite enlightening.
From memory, CHA is way underused in comparison to people's belief that it is.
DEX is more used than you'd think (from memory)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi reapersaurus!

That is misleading as written.
Add them up and compare.
I did once before - it was quite enlightening.
From memory, CHA is way underused in comparison to people's belief that it is.
DEX is more used than you'd think (from memory)

I did add them up.

31 (Cha; Int; Wis)
13 (Con; Dex; Str)