Expanding reactions in 5e

[5ekyu]

Sorry 5ekyu, not reading your wall of text. Seems like you're making claims i never did and i can't be bothered reading further.

Not going to engage in a fight because you don't seem to know how to be polite.

Thats cool. You have a great day, now.

 

[Li Shenron]

Here are some wip ideas:

When charged or attacked at range
Move 5 feet
Drop prone

When attacked
Grapple

To my mind, a 5ft step in response to a situation may be OK for a reaction.

Just want to chime in to say that if you allow a reaction with "attack" as a trigger, you'd better be clear about whether your reaction will occur after the attack hits and damage is applied, after the attack hits but before damage is applied, after the attack misses (if you want), or before the attack roll itself is resolved.

Special abilities that work as reaction to being attacked have this explicitly mentioned, because otherwise it wouldn't be clear if you can in fact render the attack useless.

Just as an example, think of what different things can happens if you allow a 5ft-step as a reaction to an attack, before the attack is resolved... For a melee attack, stepping away might make the attack inapplicable if you go out of range, or otherwise make your step pretty useless if the attacker is allowed to continue moving (and still has at least 5ft of movement left). For a ranged attack, would you allow the attacker to still target you, or would you consider a 5ft-step enough so that it's too late for the attacker to redirect the shot? What sounded like a pretty simple action to allow as a reaction, it's already causing a few headaches to sort out...

 

[CubicsRube]

Just want to chime in to say that if you allow a reaction with "attack" as a trigger, you'd better be clear about whether your reaction will occur after the attack hits and damage is applied, after the attack hits but before damage is applied, after the attack misses (if you want), or before the attack roll itself is resolved.

Special abilities that work as reaction to being attacked have this explicitly mentioned, because otherwise it wouldn't be clear if you can in fact render the attack useless.

Just as an example, think of what different things can happens if you allow a 5ft-step as a reaction to an attack, before the attack is resolved... For a melee attack, stepping away might make the attack inapplicable if you go out of range, or otherwise make your step pretty useless if the attacker is allowed to continue moving (and still has at least 5ft of movement left). For a ranged attack, would you allow the attacker to still target you, or would you consider a 5ft-step enough so that it's too late for the attacker to redirect the shot? What sounded like a pretty simple action to allow as a reaction, it's already causing a few headaches to sort out...

Yeah i think that starts to get to the crux of the complexity.

Theres things i feel like itd be great to be able to include, like ducking behind a pillar, dropping prone to arrow fire, or grappling a knight after being struck by them. But timing gets difficult, and having multiple triggers in the off turn can make things complicated.

Ultimately 5e is not built around it.

If ever rolled out, i would definately have a few clear trigger points, what ypu can do on each trigger, and none of ot shoukd be an attack or damage causing thing. But i was really just hypothosizing for the interest.

 

[CubicsRube]

One option that I've seen work well in other games is:

Abort-to-Dodge. When an enemy that you can see attacks you or forces you to make a Dexterity saving throw, you can Dodge as a reaction, but then on your next turn the only action or bonus action you can take is to Dodge. You must declare the Dodge before the attack roll or saving throw is rolled, and the Dodge applies to the attack or saving throw.​

(rephrased into 5e terms)

I very, very rarely see the Dodge action taken, and I think one of the main reasons is that you have to be really good at anticipating enemy actions in order to perceive Dodge as worthwhile. Allowing it as a reaction means that when you suddenly find yourself staring down the barrel of a Huge-sized greataxe you can chicken out and just Dodge. Pwhew!

It also reduces the feeling of helplessness when you get attacked. Enemy spellcaster coming at you with some nasty touch spell? Now you can actually do something about it! It's costly because it eats your next turn, but, hey, PC's gotta live.

Thats a pretty good one. Ive used dodge as a spellcaster out of spells, but thats about it. What i like about the idea of expanding reactions is to give choice to players when their character is being attacked or targeted. The reality is a little more difficult however

 

[5ekyu]

Just want to chime in to say that if you allow a reaction with "attack" as a trigger, you'd better be clear about whether your reaction will occur after the attack hits and damage is applied, after the attack hits but before damage is applied, after the attack misses (if you want), or before the attack roll itself is resolved.

Special abilities that work as reaction to being attacked have this explicitly mentioned, because otherwise it wouldn't be clear if you can in fact render the attack useless.

Just as an example, think of what different things can happens if you allow a 5ft-step as a reaction to an attack, before the attack is resolved... For a melee attack, stepping away might make the attack inapplicable if you go out of range, or otherwise make your step pretty useless if the attacker is allowed to continue moving (and still has at least 5ft of movement left). For a ranged attack, would you allow the attacker to still target you, or would you consider a 5ft-step enough so that it's too late for the attacker to redirect the shot? What sounded like a pretty simple action to allow as a reaction, it's already causing a few headaches to sort out...

Good point... As you say the norm is reactions after the trigger but a lot of these seem to want to be exceptions.

Of course, the "attacked". "React move 5'back out of range" "react OA to you leaving range choose shove prone so you dont leave" then "finish my initial attack" could get complicated depending on what triggers what options in the expansion.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Just want to chime in to say that if you allow a reaction with "attack" as a trigger, you'd better be clear about whether your reaction will occur after the attack hits and damage is applied, after the attack hits but before damage is applied, after the attack misses (if you want), or before the attack roll itself is resolved.

Yep. My comment was about the sort of action possible as a reaction rather than the ability to take a reaction any time you want.
It was in response to a post suggesting full move and take an action sequences performed as a reaction in addition to the move + action possible during the characters actual turn.
I'm not a fan of giving reactions to almost any criteria such as simply being attacked or moved up to for everyone. However even if the criteria for taking a reaction is expanded, I think a general reaction should be a fairly immediate and rapid response, - like a single step, or attacking your opponent as they drop their guard to flee rather than a much longer sequence of actions.

 

[77IM]

i have seen this sort of thing - played with it quite a bit back in HERO system play for one but there were others.

i see dodge used when its really necessary or when there is nothing better to do - you can't get close enough so you move and dodge and expect to finish closing and strike next turn. So, it tends to happen more frequently or not depending on the distances and area of a combat. if most of the time they start at 30' or closer you will rarely see it. But if one side or the other needs to close - dodge is very necessary.

The other times i see it is when you have a strategic position thing... warrior blocking the entrance using dodge while others attack from behind or the oft stated "cleric - spiritual weapon, guardian spirits dodge " sort of thing where ongoing effects that don't need actions are strong enough - especially with bonus action spells (pretty sure the above cleric could throw in healing word as BA during each of those dodge turns by RAW if he did not use the BA/spiritual weapon attack on a turn - not your house rule.)

But back in the HERO days it became something of a devil-if-you-do because committing your next turn with a reaction-dodge was frequently as much a trap as it was a save. trading "next turn" for "maybe getting missed" could easily lead to being left out in the cold when the events shifted. But that too would really depend on the nature and style of the combats. if the combat is rather static and predictable - no big deal. if the combat is more dynamic and fluid and reactive, locking down your next turn as much as a round before it happens can be a really huge gamble for the hope of getting misses.

basically it boils down to this - even if you make it a reaction, as long as it eats your action, it will still be popular only when there is nothing to do with your action that is more fun - cuz IMo the main reason folks do not routinely dodge when they have attacks or spells or other things to do is folks are there to *do stuff* not just to *not get hit*.

While there may be special cases where it would be different - i cannot see any sort of common enough combat case where giving up your current reaction your next turn's action and bonus action for just an increased chance of a miss on attacks and better dex saves to mean this rule has any significant impact on the use of dodge.

But, by the same token, likely as not all it would do is weaken those using it so... no big deal either way.

These are all good points. I still think Dodge would be more popular if you could use it as a reaction, for psychological reasons. It's kind of like your observation that people like making attacks more than they like dodging, because an attack represents doing stuff. Dodging as a reaction is doing something. And, people tend to dislike getting hit. For example, the people I play with avoid opportunity attacks like the plague, even when it would be tactically much better to take the hit and keep moving. So I think on occasion (dragon's breath, sneak attacks, etc.) many people would happily give up their next round in order to Dodge right now.

I agree that this won't make Dodge any more useful, which is why I think it's a good rule.