Expanding reactions in 5e

[5ekyu]

Im not sure if youre being serious. Because you know a lot of people arent going to give up an action based on a chance someone will set off the trigger they tried to predict before the turn started.

The idea is that depending o what happens, the characters may have an optio to react to what enemies do. I thought that part was obvious

Huh?

So, the OP seemed to have bern referring to expanding what you can do with your reaction. I took 5'move and shove as "things one can do while reacting" not as "things you can get a free reaction to."

Why would someone trying to shove you grant an opportunity reaction attack? Or moving 5'?

Have you found in play those things to be so powerful or frequently used that you see a need to discourage them by providing an OA?

 

[CubicsRube]

Nup, thays not it either.

As the system stands, youd have to forgo an action on your turn and set a trigger, such as "i attack the first person to come into range of me". And then if that happens, they can use their reaction as well to make that attack.

However if no one approaches that pc, then their action is wasted.

I dont know anyone that often uses reactions due to the sacrifice of their action on their turn and the chance that it may be wasted anyway.

So there might be a few situations where an expanded reactions list might cone into play.

For example if a pc is the target of an attack, they may be able to use their reaction to move 5' in any direction. Away, behind an obstacle, towards the target, etc.

Or a player may choose to grapple or shove if an enemy moves out of their threat range.

Here are some wip ideas:

When charged or attacked at range
Move 5 feet
Drop prone

When attacked
Grapple

When triggered
Use a readied action

When leaving threat range
Opportunity attack
Grapple

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Alright, so I found the things I had previously been working on. It's been a while since I've even looked at them, so my opinions and positions have likely changed. But perhaps this could help.

New Types of Reactions

Battlefield Mobility: As a reaction, at the end of an enemy's turn you can move up to your speed. If you have already gone this round and have any leftover movement from your turn, you can also use it during this reaction. This movement may draw attacks of opportunity as normal.

Save Yourselves! (Name needs work): You can position yourself to assist your ally to help them get out of combat. When an ally attempts to move out of an enemy's reach, you can use your reaction move up to your speed and make an opposed Athletics or Acrobatics check against that enemy if they are within 5' of you. The enemy gets to choose if they will use Athletics or Acrobatics. If you succeed, that enemy cannot make attacks of opportunity until the start of your next turn.

Running Interference: You can move with an ally and provide cover for them. When an ally that is within 5' begins moving, you can move with them. Moving with your ally in this way allows you to take any attacks of opportunity that would normally be directed at your ally. If you move more than your base speed during this action, you take one level of exhaustion for every multiple of your base movement speed you cover in total distance (i.e. 1 level of exhaustion if you move more than your base speed, 2 levels of exhaustion if you move more than twice your base speed, ect).

Class Specific Battlefield Actions

Barbarian

Tactical Meat Shield (Name needs work): When an ally is hit with an attack or fails a saving throw that specifically targets them, you can use your reaction to move up to your speed towards them. If you are within 5' of your ally by the end of this movement, you can force yourself in the path of the attack or effect. You become the target of the effect and automatically take any damage and are subject to any effects resulting from the attack.

Reasoning: Barbarians are usually the toughest hombres around. They can take blows that others couldn't survive. Also, until higher levels, you need to be receiving damage or making attacks to sustain your rage. This provides one more way to make sure your rage does not end prematurely, especially if you are facing foes at a range.

Bard

Tactical Spell Enchantment: When an ally within 60' of you casts a spell or uses an ability that targets an enemy, as a reaction you can use one of your spell slots to make your ally's spell or ability more likely to take effect. Divide the level of the spell slot you sacrificed by two (round up). You add this value to your ally’s DC or Attack Bonus.

Reasoning: Bards are all about party support anyways, and there is some question whether Bards should even be full casters. This gives Bards a new way to use their spells to support the team without having to only rely on Bardic Inspiration. Also, this mechanic seems to be in line with Bardic Inspiration, at least in spirit.

Cleric

Tactical Healer: After an ally has taken damage, been reduced to 0 hit points, or made a Death Saving Throw, as a reaction you can move up to your speed and cast a spell to heal this ally. You can only cast spells from the following list using this reaction: Spare the Dying, Cure Wounds, Sanctuary, Aid, Lesser Restoration, Revivify, Greater Restoration, Heal, Resurrection, and True Resurrection.

Reasoning: I know there are many ways to provide healing and support in 5e to the extent that people compare it to a game a whack-a-mole. But I also have a sense that when a cleric has to use their action to heal, it is not always necessarily their choice but rather an obligation or something they must do because of their role. While it does bring more power to healing potential, it also allows clerics to continue to fight on the front lines while maintaining their position as the party healer.

Druid

Tactical Protection: When an ally within 60' of you is targeted by an attack or spell effect, you can use a reaction sacrifice a spell slot in order to raise protective magic around your ally. Divide the level of the spell slot you sacrificed by two (round up). You add this value to your ally’s AC or Saving Throw Bonus. You can use spells in this way even while you are in Wildshape.

Reasoning: The way I see it, if Clerics are the party healers, Wizards are the artillery, and Sorcerers are the shapers/artists of magic, Druids are the protectors. Their very identity is to protect nature and balance.

Fighter

Tactical Assist: You can strike at enemies to draw their attention, lowering their guard and creating openings for your allies. When an ally makes an attack against an enemy, as a reaction you can move up to your speed. If the target of your ally’s attack is within range of your weapon, this attack is made with advantage.

Monk

Tactical Defense: You can help deflect and block attacks coming at your allies. As a reaction when an ally is targeted by an attack or spell, you can move up to your speed. If by the end of your movement you are within 5’ of your ally, you can force the attack roll to be made at disadvantage.

Rogue

Tactical Sneak Attack: As your allies attack a target, you can create a distraction that opens them up to more deadly attacks. As a reaction after an ally successfully hits a target, you can move up to your speed to position yourself within range of the target. If the target is within range of your weapon attack, your ally’s attack deals additional damage equal to your number of sneak attack dice.

Sorcerer

Tactical Metamagic: When an ally casts a spell within 60' of you, you can use your sorcery points to alter your ally's spell with metamagic. As a reaction you can spend the sorcery point cost and apply a metamagic effect you know on your ally's spell.

A sorcerer may attempt to apply metamagic effects to non-spells at the DM’S discretion.

Reasoning: Provides more flexibility to sorcerers regarding how they can use their metamagic, which I think is a good thing. My main problem, though, is how it can be applied to non-spellcasters. Additionally, unlike the other abilities listed, this is not available to the sorcerer from level 1.

Wizard

Energy Conduit: When an ally who is within 60' of you makes a successful attack or spell attack, you can use your reaction to use one of your spell slots to make your ally's attack more deadly. For each level of spell slot you sacrificed, your ally can add one additional die of damage of the same damage type to the attack’s damage.

Reasoning: When I think of classic wizards, I think of fireballs and enchanting weapons to be more deadly. So this seemed fitting to me.

Additional Thoughts for other class design

Paladin: I'm thinking they could maybe put their divine smite ability over someone else's attack. Only problem with this, though, is that it is very similar to the Wizard ability.

Artificer, Mystic, Warlock, Ranger: I have no idea for any of these. Any help anyone could provide would be welcome.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Most of those read like not-insignificant class abilities. Some of them are practically allowing an entire extra turn as a reaction.

To my mind, a 5ft step in response to a situation may be OK for a reaction. Not a full move + action.

Bard: this is very much stepping on what inspiration does. simply copying what an already existing class feature does is unnecessary.
Fighter: If they are using a ranged or thrown weapon for this, to they expend ammunition/lose hold of the weapon?
Wizard: This does not seem thematic, and is just a somwewhat better version of a Paladin Smite.

Furthermore, allowing casters to burn through spell slots even faster seems contrary to the design goals of 5e, where mechanics like concentration are designed to prevent that sort of thing.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Most of those read like not-insignificant class abilities. Some of them are practically allowing an entire extra turn as a reaction.

To my mind, a 5ft step in response to a situation may be OK for a reaction. Not a full move + action.

Bard: this is very much stepping on what inspiration does. simply copying what an already existing class feature does is unnecessary.
Fighter: If they are using a ranged or thrown weapon for this, to they expend ammunition/lose hold of the weapon?
Wizard: This does not seem thematic, and is just a somwewhat better version of a Paladin Smite.

Furthermore, allowing casters to burn through spell slots even faster seems contrary to the design goals of 5e, where mechanics like concentration are designed to prevent that sort of thing.

That was sort of the point to make these new class specific abilities. Also, many of them are written not just to give a new reaction, but are specifically made to encourage team work.

As a visualization, think about when the Power Rangers brought all their weapons together into a single big weapon and made a super attack. Currently most combat actions outside of Help and a few class specific support abilities, actions are about what your character does rather than how they work together.

As for the comment about stepping on inspiration.... that's why I gave that ability to the Bard. Bards can't step on their own toes.

If you have better ideas to expand reactions or teamwork-encouraging abilities or can make suggestions, I'd love to hear them.

 

[5ekyu]

Nup, thays not it either.

As the system stands, youd have to forgo an action on your turn and set a trigger, such as "i attack the first person to come into range of me". And then if that happens, they can use their reaction as well to make that attack.

However if no one approaches that pc, then their action is wasted.

I dont know anyone that often uses reactions due to the sacrifice of their action on their turn and the chance that it may be wasted anyway.

So there might be a few situations where an expanded reactions list might cone into play.

For example if a pc is the target of an attack, they may be able to use their reaction to move 5' in any direction. Away, behind an obstacle, towards the target, etc.

Or a player may choose to grapple or shove if an enemy moves out of their threat range.

Here are some wip ideas:

When charged or attacked at range
Move 5 feet
Drop prone

When attacked
Grapple

When triggered
Use a readied action

When leaving threat range
Opportunity attack
Grapple

So you are wanting to expand the list of triggers to include common combat activities *and* expand the list of "allowed as reactions" to the point that, it seems, practically speaking on most if not every turn in a significant combat someone is likely to be able to use a reaction *without* special preparation or planning?

One of the things i like about combat in 5e is that planning and tactics matter. Each turn you do not just get handed to you useful actions, bonus action and reactions all as a matter of course.

You have to plan and execute to frequently be able to be able to use all of these in a round/turn *or* an enemy has to make a decision to give up an opening like say exposing themselves to an OA.

So, this degree of expansion to allow reactions basically when attacked by range, melee or charge goes to that planning, tactic, setup and says "dont bother, you will get a reaction each turn mostly anyway."

So not a fan.

Also, it really fosters even stronger rhe dogpile mentality. It makes "everybody hit one guy" even better than it is now because the target only gets one reaction. Spreading out attacks across multiple targets allows more reactions and would be bad under this paradigm.

Now, maybe one sees that as great tactics or what not, but to me that really cuts into many style/setting goals. Are you trying to emulate mmo beat downs or fights like we see in fantasy novels and films where often each lead character is in battle with one or more enemies in a big fight?

From a PC perspective, would the fights be more fun or less fun if the bad guys, intelligent ones, all piled damage on one guy until they went down, then shifted to another etc in paet because that prevented a lot of "extra reaction attacks"?

Are those fun goals? That would be what a pretty much "take reaction when attacked" house rule rewards.

All that said, this might well help for certain styles of play and groups to achieve a playstyle they like. It will certainly increase the number of off-turn actions and maybe that per turn action density is desirable - at leadt until they see how it impacts their ability to stay up due to enemies getting all their reactions too.

But for me it takes a plan/tactics gain and just hands it out and seems to really ramp up the actions per round in a very slanted way.

At the very least, you should considet giving spell casters the ability to throw one action cast spells as reactions to typical combat events just like you allow shoves or grapples and seriously look at the triggers of "reaction spells" to expand them too. As is this seems rather one sided giving options to get non-spell based full actions as reactions but not spells.

I mean, what spell based options should i get for an enemy grsppling me? How about a reaction dimension door?

 

[77IM]

One option that I've seen work well in other games is:

Abort-to-Dodge. When an enemy that you can see attacks you or forces you to make a Dexterity saving throw, you can Dodge as a reaction, but then on your next turn the only action or bonus action you can take is to Dodge. You must declare the Dodge before the attack roll or saving throw is rolled, and the Dodge applies to the attack or saving throw.​

(rephrased into 5e terms)

I very, very rarely see the Dodge action taken, and I think one of the main reasons is that you have to be really good at anticipating enemy actions in order to perceive Dodge as worthwhile. Allowing it as a reaction means that when you suddenly find yourself staring down the barrel of a Huge-sized greataxe you can chicken out and just Dodge. Pwhew!

It also reduces the feeling of helplessness when you get attacked. Enemy spellcaster coming at you with some nasty touch spell? Now you can actually do something about it! It's costly because it eats your next turn, but, hey, PC's gotta live.

 

[jaelis]

Abort-to-Dodge.

That's a pretty good one.

 

[5ekyu]

One option that I've seen work well in other games is:

Abort-to-Dodge. When an enemy that you can see attacks you or forces you to make a Dexterity saving throw, you can Dodge as a reaction, but then on your next turn the only action or bonus action you can take is to Dodge. You must declare the Dodge before the attack roll or saving throw is rolled, and the Dodge applies to the attack or saving throw.​

(rephrased into 5e terms)

I very, very rarely see the Dodge action taken, and I think one of the main reasons is that you have to be really good at anticipating enemy actions in order to perceive Dodge as worthwhile. Allowing it as a reaction means that when you suddenly find yourself staring down the barrel of a Huge-sized greataxe you can chicken out and just Dodge. Pwhew!

It also reduces the feeling of helplessness when you get attacked. Enemy spellcaster coming at you with some nasty touch spell? Now you can actually do something about it! It's costly because it eats your next turn, but, hey, PC's gotta live.

i have seen this sort of thing - played with it quite a bit back in HERO system play for one but there were others.

i see dodge used when its really necessary or when there is nothing better to do - you can't get close enough so you move and dodge and expect to finish closing and strike next turn. So, it tends to happen more frequently or not depending on the distances and area of a combat. if most of the time they start at 30' or closer you will rarely see it. But if one side or the other needs to close - dodge is very necessary.

The other times i see it is when you have a strategic position thing... warrior blocking the entrance using dodge while others attack from behind or the oft stated "cleric - spiritual weapon, guardian spirits dodge " sort of thing where ongoing effects that don't need actions are strong enough - especially with bonus action spells (pretty sure the above cleric could throw in healing word as BA during each of those dodge turns by RAW if he did not use the BA/spiritual weapon attack on a turn - not your house rule.)

But back in the HERO days it became something of a devil-if-you-do because committing your next turn with a reaction-dodge was frequently as much a trap as it was a save. trading "next turn" for "maybe getting missed" could easily lead to being left out in the cold when the events shifted. But that too would really depend on the nature and style of the combats. if the combat is rather static and predictable - no big deal. if the combat is more dynamic and fluid and reactive, locking down your next turn as much as a round before it happens can be a really huge gamble for the hope of getting misses.

basically it boils down to this - even if you make it a reaction, as long as it eats your action, it will still be popular only when there is nothing to do with your action that is more fun - cuz IMo the main reason folks do not routinely dodge when they have attacks or spells or other things to do is folks are there to *do stuff* not just to *not get hit*.

While there may be special cases where it would be different - i cannot see any sort of common enough combat case where giving up your current reaction your next turn's action and bonus action for just an increased chance of a miss on attacks and better dex saves to mean this rule has any significant impact on the use of dodge.

But, by the same token, likely as not all it would do is weaken those using it so... no big deal either way.

 

[CubicsRube]

Sorry 5ekyu, not reading your wall of text. Seems like you're making claims i never did and i can't be bothered reading further.

Not going to engage in a fight because you don't seem to know how to be polite.