Experience with Jedi

[argo]

Not true. A Tech Specialist can ruin your day if controlled by a crafty player. I'm in a campaign where the Tech Specialist routinely hacks computerized hardware (droids, vehicles, computers, ships) right out from under his enemies. He turned a Dark Jedi's war droids against her, melted a squad of mercenaries by venting plasma from a parked ship, and caused an Imperial corvette to space its crew. He rarely participates in stand-up fights, but he has the highest kill score in the party.

Heh, you're preaching to the chior here: my character once made a Star Destroyer's engines go critical taking out the ship and the entire opposing faction that had siezed it

My point was that compared to a scoundrel "slicer" or a fringer "mechanic" there is little about the Tech Specalist that makes him that much of a superior ... specalist. But those classes also get some nice bonuses such as the Scoundrel's luck ability or the Fringer's bonus to jury-rig repairs. So why play a Tech Specalist "slicer" when you could be a Scoundrel "slicer" with the gearhead feat instead?

YMMV

 

[Tyler Do'Urden]

Also another thing that balances the Jedi characters is it's hard to roleplay them properly.

Which was what I meant by the "code"- you've gotta hold them to it.

That, and the threat of falling into the Dark Side.

Which isn't a threat in d20- they've really taken the sting out of it. Taking a -8 penalty to Heal Other and having a chance at losing a point in a physical stat every time you level (which, in an average campaign, won't amount to that much) isn't a big tradeoff for being able to throw around force powers (and dark side powers) like a power-drunk pagan demigod. In d6, your character became an NPC pawn of the Darkside, and that was that...

If you want to play a Jedi, play a Jedi. If you want to play a power-drunk pagan demigod with a glowing energy blade, well, erm, play Arcana Evolved. Which itself doesn't sound like too bad an idea...

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Hold Jedi to their code, and they're fine characters.

Also another thing that balances the Jedi characters is it's hard to roleplay them properly.

I definitely think Jedi characters should be played by serious roleplayers, but I also believe game mechanics should not include roleplaying in their balancing factors. For instance, the paladin is, IMO, perfectly balanced without its LG restrictions. Jedi would ideally be made the same way. Before I run a game, I will not be giving dark side points for anything other than what the book says (mostly use of inappropriate feats and skills). Every other situation will be an on-the-spot call.

The game I considered running was something cast well in the future of the Star Wars universe, with all the beloved characters long gone. Luke changed the Jedi order, moving away from the passive Jedi of the Old Republic to something more humanized and even emotional (he does marry Mara Jade at some point). His falls to the dark side changed his character, his fate, and in many ways the new Jedi order. I wanted to run a game where everyone the Force Sensitive feat, employed as a Jedi Special Forces team. Ideally everyone would have one level of Jedi, but they would never have to advance in their Jedi classes beyond that. They reach the titles of Knight at the equivalent character level (instead of Jedi level), and everyone would have access to the Force skills (without an increase in actual skill points, making characters choose what skills they feel are more important). This Jedi SWAT team would go into stealth and combat missions, and because of the darker nature of these missions, would often be tempted by the dark side.

Characters who fall will become enemies, though whether I would take away the character or work with the player to create some unique roleplaying opportunities remains to be seen. The point is, I doubt everyone would take all levels of Jedi, so I'd want the none-Jedi team members to be equal mechanically. The code will come into play, but only as a means of creating roleplaying opportunities. I do not want to use it to restrict people specifically. Their are rules in the game for absolving Dark Side points gained, and I will be following those as well.

If you want to play a power-drunk pagan demigod with a glowing energy blade, well, erm, play Arcana Evolved. Which itself doesn't sound [like too bad an idea...

I've never been sorry for that

 

[Khorod]

Magic is woven into the fabric of most fantasy worlds. Star Wars is a bit different- the Force is behind the scenes. To fully express its power, limitations, and its... balance... with game mechanics is pretty ambitious.

I think Jedi are one of those 'might be broken' things, that, for the sake of flavor, are best balanced on the fly and in-game.

If you balance the rules too much, then you are stuck with the problem that Jedi are, on average, several levels higher than whoever they stand next to. That doesn't work too well in an adventuring party.

 

[Henry]

My group has found little problem with Jedi in a d20 Star Wars game, especially when using the revised rules edition. Our group has 3 Jedi out of 6 PC's, and what balances us is he need for rest after every combat, in addition to the fact that Wound points can take us out just like everyone else. Confirm a crit on a jedi (not hard to do when your defense score doesn't get above a 20 to 25) with a 3d8 blaster, or drop a building on him when he's unprepared, and he dies just like the next human or alien in line.

I play a jedi in a Star Wars game currently, and while my comrades and I can do some cool things, by no means are we unkillable demigods, or show up the other PCs. The slicers and repairers have their work, the wookie matches or outstrips me in damage all the time with a vibroaxe (2d10 +7 is no slouch compared to 3d8+3!) and while we haven't had a serious chase yet, the group's going to want the Duros Space Pilot behind the controls before they want me or one of my jedi brethren.

They call me when they want a 2-ton block of stone moved, or if we need to convince someone that our papers are valid just long enough to slip through; they call my Guardian brother if they want to view something remotely, or they need someone harder to hit because that's his specialty; they call my Consular brother when they need healing, or research. But they also call the wookie when the butt-kicking needs that personal touch, or the pilot when we need to RUN, or the Scoundrel when we need to jury-rig something NOW, or someone needs a bomb built. We all have our specialties, but the jedi are definitely not one-man wrecking crews.

 

[Breakdaddy]

What Henry said. We have 5 Jedi (3 guardians/2 consulars) in our group all at level 5. We get a level 5 Soldier in there with a modified Blaster Rifle (3d8+3 damage) and a weapon focus on said rifle and he is dealing out more damage more consistently at longer ranges than the Jedi. Of course, they have cool force powers, but they cant Jury-Rig the Twilight Sentinel (their modified YT1300) in 5 rounds to hit lightspeed in the middle of a pitched battle like the soldier can.

 

[kenobi65]

What about damage. The increased lightsaber damage is another one of those figures that looks really great on paper, especially considering no other class has that kind of damage potential. Even the first +1d8 is twice as good as weapon specialization (on average), and the Guardian eventually gets +4d8 damage. The only other weapon I've seen with comparative damage in the core book is the e-web blaster, which requires a tripod.

Attack for attack, that's true. But, what you're forgetting is that the Jedi may not get as many attacks as a gun-bunny can.

A Jedi with his lightsaber (or, for that matter, anyone using a melee weapon) can't benefit from feats like Rapid Shot and Multishot, nor from the Multifire / Autofire buttons that many blasters have. (Edit: I suppose you could consider that Cleave, and Attacks of Opportunity, help melee combatants but not ranged ones, but neither are reliable ways to create additional attacks.)

About the only feat I can think of that can give Jedi addtional attacks would be Heroic Surge, and (a) it only works a few times per day, and (b) non-Jedi can benefit from that in the same way.

Additionally, IME, Jedi will frequently use Deflect Blasters to add to their Defense and / or knock shots back at their opponents. Keep in mind that doing this costs the Jedi a move action in the following round -- which fundamentally limits him to one attack in that round, unless he uses Heroic Surge or something like that.

I play a Scoundrel 10 / Soldier 1 in Living Force, and frequently play with 2 11th-level Jedi. While they are doing like 4d8 or 5d8 with their lightsabers, they're only getting 2 or 3 attacks per round (and, often, not even that, as they're Deflecting). I'm regularly taking 3 shots per round (Rapid Shot), and can get up to 6 shots per round (Rapid Shot, autofire weapon, Heroic Surge).

And, as others have pointed out, it's the rare Jedi who has any kind of skill modifiers in more than one or two non-Force skills. If you really feel like Jedi are overwhelming your campaign, make sure your GM is including challenges that Force skills and a UCT alone can't overcome.

 

[kenobi65]

IA single Force Skill can replace multiple normal ones, and thats just where the force and normal skills are equivalents, with the force you can do things that no matter how skilled a person is they cannot match. Need sense motive, bluff, diplomacy? use affect mind. Need spot, search, listen? use enhance senses. A jedi can be better then any character in that character's area of specialization.

Err...Pilot? Repair? Computer Use? Disable Device? Demolitions? Knowledge? Astrogate? Just to name a few that the Force alone usually won't help much with. My Scoundrel / Soldier has Computer Use +17, Disable Device +19, Pilot +20, Repair +22; I don't think a Jedi of comparable level would be likely to even come close to any of those.

::The Jedi waves his hand at the broken computer:: "You're fixed."

And, using Enhance Senses doesn't help you much in surprise situations. I'd much rather have ranks in Spot and / or Listen...those are "always on."

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Good responses guys. This is the kind of feedback I'm looking for. I definitely didn't take into account the shooter's ability to gain a lot of attacks per round. Force skill usage is something a Jedi has to be careful with, but the good saving throws in all categories alleviates some of these worries. Seems like the class isn't nearly as bad as I might've worried, judging from most experiences. I think, like all good games, experiences need to be varied so that one particular class isn't in the forefront all the time. It also sounds like Jedi have to be careful when taking damage, not only because of the vitality point shortage, but also when taking damage to their Wound Points. If there are any more responses for either side, please keep them coming.

 

[kenobi65]

Force skill usage is something a Jedi has to be careful with, but the good saving throws in all categories alleviates some of these worries.

If you're coming from a D&D background (I'm guessing you are), you'll find that saving throws tend to come up a lot less often in SW.

Fort saves are important versus stun, and to stabilize if you drop to negative WP, but either circumstance may not come up that often. (That said, if you deal with stun grenades / weapons set on stun a lot, Fort can be very important.) Poison (a big source of Fort saves in D&D) doesn't seem to come up very often, and injury poison (like from a poison bite) only works if the injury causes WP damage.

Reflex saves primarily deal with damage from grenade weapons, which may not happen too often.

Will saves are important for resisting some Force effects, but again, those may not happen too often, unless you tend to run into a lot of bad guys using Affect Mind. (IIRC, using Move Object to disarm opponents gives them a Will save, too.)