Expertise justification?

[Runestar]

We don't want to go back to the "Angel Summoner and BMX bandit" days of third edition, right?

Huh?

 

[Angellis_ater]

Google is your friend: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw&feature=related]YouTube - Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit[/ame]

It is a parody between the Wizard & Rogue "usefulness" in 3rd Edition.

 

[KarinsDad]

However, I would probably do an exception and suggest the feat to a player whose character had consistent problems hitting... I am sure everybody realizes that if one of the characters in the party can seemingly never hit, it is less fun for everyone, right?

You avoided the questions. What is the definition of a sub-optimal PC, and who decides that (since you rotate DMs), and how do the other players feel about that?

Also, if a PC has problems hitting, one has to look at the reason. If you hand Expertise out to that PC at Paragon or higher level, maybe he will hit a lot at that point and the other PCs will appear to have consistent problems hitting.

What are the bonuses of the PC that has the problem and the other PCs? If they are about the same, do you penalize the other players because this player is unlucky?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Why would someone who plays a non-optimized character take the arguably most imbalanced feat? Non-optimization doesn't stop at ability score assignment, you know. I can think of tons of feats more interesting, chellenging, or useful than a to-hit-bonus.

thus a waste of a feat and ability points...

I don't know which logical fallacy that is, and I hope you were being ironic so I won't have to research into that matter.

no logical fallacy nor beeing ironic. I am serious...

... hitting with 9 or 10 is a damage decrease of less than 10% (EHP calculation). It gets better the less frequent you hit and weapon fokus gets better the more you already hit. (+1 damage on d12+4 is also about 10% damage increase)

so expertise gets worse the more optimized for hitting you are... and it is best when you very bad at hitting... and then you should consider putting your highest number in your main attribute...

Remember the comparison between Twin strike and careful attack? +2 to hit worse than a basic attack if you want to dish out dmage...

the other difference is: you will notice weapon fokus in all fights...
but you will notice the effect of expertise if you happen to roll the 9 or the 8... and you will only be unhappy if it is when using a daily...

2 fixes for expertise:

- its a power bonus instead of untyped (so it will not stack with bonuses from daily powers)
- it only works with daily (or encounter) powers

 

[Lauberfen]

The thing is, it's only relatively worse.

For a character that hits more, expertise is just as good, but focus would be relatively better.

To be accurate, the value of expertise increases as your damage increases, Wheras focus is more valuable the more you hit.

The difficulty is this- optimised characters will do more damage as well as hitting more. So they will gain more.

For example, let's assume 2 level 2 characters fighting vs AC 18.

A less optimised character, main stat 16. +7 to hit (+3+3+1), average 7.5 damage with longsword. Average damage per round 3.75.

An optimised one, main stat 20 (perhaps hyper optimised). +9 to hit, average damage 9.5 with longsword. Average damage per round 5.7

Now add Expertise- the less optimised character gains 0.375 DPR, now 4.125.
The optimised character gains 0.475, for a total of 6.175.

Consequently, a simple +1 bonus to hit exxaggerates the difference between the characters.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

your damage for the hyperoptimized one is wrong

its 5.7 DPR average and goes up to 6.175 DPR

so: you gain extra 7.7% damage

the non optimized char gets extra 9.1% damage

and since the relative damage matters when you are depleting the enemies hp, its actually better for the non optimized char...

and if you calculate: both would be better off to take weapon fokus instead:

the optimized char will increase his damage to 6.3 DPR
and the non optimized char will increase his damage to 4.25 DPR

p.s.: of yourse, increasing both to hit and damage with stats will greatly increase your damage output (between 10 and 20%) so if you want to optimize, do it by increasing your main stat...

but i still say: expertise is not more broken than weapon fokus on lower levels. (for damage output)

But: if you need to hit because you want to get a noteworthy status effect on your allies or your enemy, by all means, take expertise... but you will be better off by taking a racial feat which will help your crucial dailies to give you an effect for the whole encounter... the simple +1 won´t do it...

 

[KarinsDad]

your damage for the hyperoptimized one is wrong

its 5.7 DPR average and goes up to 6.175 DPR

so: you gain extra 7.7% damage

the non optimized char gets extra 9.1% damage

and since the relative damage matters when you are depleting the enemies hp, its actually better for the non optimized char...

One cannot look at percentages. They are totally misleading.

The optimized PC gains 0.475 average damage per round.

The sub-optimized PC gains 0.375 average damage per round.

The optimized PC gains more actual average damage per round.

 

[Lauberfen]

Exactly. relative damage is nonsense- monsters get killed by concrete damage.

If I actually do more damage, I actually kill the monster faster than you. You can do all the relative damage you like, but If I'm doing more DPR the monsters will die quicker.

Thanks for checking my maths, I'll edit in the right figures.

 

[keterys]

You might want to check at levels in which you get actual damage bonuses and/or using powers that have damage bonuses.

Very low level with just a basic attack and no magic weapon is... not terribly illustrative?

For example, I have a level 8 very much not optimized party in one game with characters who deal, without weapon focus and only using at-wills, 1d8+6+1d6 (Eldritch Strike + Curse), 1d6+11+2d8 (Sly Flourish + Sneak Attack), 1d10 + 7 (Enfeebling Strike). More min/maxed characters with, say, things like Iron Armbands of Power, Brash Strike, Totem Daggers, Staff of Ruin, Dwarven Weapon Training, being a Sorcerer, etc will skew the math even more.

 

[Nail]

Google is your friend: <snip>
It is a parody between the Wizard & Rogue "usefulness" in 3rd Edition.

That's excellent. Thanks!