Explain why DMPCs are bad to me.

[Hussar]

What about DMs who feel that their NPCs are AS important to the game as the PCs are?

To me, that is fine. It's much the same when comparing PCs with other PCs - if one is the star of the show (always) and the others are therefore more like extras or what have you, there's a problem. So, I guess I put DMPCs in with player PCs, and judge them basically the same.way. That said, I think they only really have a legitimate long term place when filling gaps in numbers.

I'm with Fusangite in not playing with those DM's (anymore). I've had way too many problems with that. I believe, as a player and as a DM, that the PC's are the stars of the show. While it might be great to have an episode that revolves around NPC's once in a while, you don't watch Star Trek to see Nameless Red Shirt #23 chatting up Nameless Blue Shirt #11. You watch the show to see the main characters. I view gaming in much the same way. IMNSHO, NPC's are NEVER as important as PC's.

Dagger of Lath - to me, DMPC and Mary Sue are synonymous. If the DM is running an NPC that is not stealing the stage from the PC's, then there's no problem. However, when a DM begins to tailor the campaign around a long term NPC rather than the PC's, then it's a case of DMPC and a bad thing.

To me, it's not even really a case of the NPC being more powerful than the party. That can work. However, when the DM begins having that more powerful NPC deal with all or even a large number of the situations in the game, then it's a problem. An NPC that is central to the plot is fine. An NPC which resolves every plot is not. That's where it steps over the line, for me, into the realm of DMPC.

Actually, I'm going to backtrack a bit about the Mary Sue thing. A DMPC doesn't necessarily have to be better than the PC's. However, to cross from NPC to DMPC requires that the NPC become the primary actor in many situations. When NPC's you meet talk to the DMPC first, when the DMPC begins giving orders to the PC's, when treasures found are tailored to the DMPC, then there's a problem.

Otherwise, the character is simply a long term NPC. That's groovy.

An NPC that starts with the party and stays for a long time isn't necessarily a DMPC. Filling niches with NPC's doesn't mean that there's a problem. Filling niches with a DMPC is always a problem.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I'm with Fusangite in not playing with those DM's (anymore). I've had way too many problems with that. I believe, as a player and as a DM, that the PC's are the stars of the show. While it might be great to have an episode that revolves around NPC's once in a while, you don't watch Star Trek to see Nameless Red Shirt #23 chatting up Nameless Blue Shirt #11. You watch the show to see the main characters. I view gaming in much the same way. IMNSHO, NPC's are NEVER as important as PC's.

Ah. I was thinking of the terms "NPC", "DMPC" and "important" in different ways than were yourself and fusangite. No wonder I was a bit confused as to exactly what you (and they) meant, and why.


Here's an example of what I mean:

(. . .) [T]o me, DMPC and Mary Sue are synonymous.

I really didn't have this in mind (and I still don't, for my own interpretation) when I was posting before.

An NPC that starts with the party and stays for a long time isn't necessarily a DMPC.

See, I pretty much thought they were. Just for one more example of how 'off' my comments perhaps were/seemed, depending on where you happen to be coming from.


I think I now understand what you (and fusangite) were meaning. Sorry about the misunderstanding there. It's something I find happens quite often online - and not just with me, btw - different interpretations getting in the way of clear communication. But hey, it all works out in the end, so 's cool.

 

[Hussar]

Heh, no worries.

Nothing like a little pedantry between gamers. It wouldn't be EnWorld if we couldn't abuse the English language.

 

[danzig138]

that the DM just might like to be PART OF THE GAME

Let's see. . . I've been playing for about 19 years now, and DMing for about 18 of those years. The last time I was a Player (not a player in the game, which we all are) was about 3 years ago. Before that, maybe 5-6 years. Let's just say that my time as DM is much greater than my time as Player.

Here's my thought on the matter.

Are you running the game? Yes? Then you're a part of the game. In most cases, I think it's probably safe to assume that no one held a gun to your head and said "Hey, you! Yeah, you! Run this game now or I'm gonna blow your stinking head off!"

I get tired of seeing players on message boards complaining about some things, like DMPCs*, but you know what? I get equally tired of seeing DMs cry in their cheerios about how the players aren't respecting their vision, their work, or following their whims, or are unhappy with the direction of the game.

Won't somebody please think of the Dungeon Masters?

Please.

If you don't like the work involved in running the game, if you don't feel like you're in on the fun,

DON'T RUN THE FREAKING GAME!

If you want to be on the Player side of the Wall of Fear and Ignorance, then what you need to do is go "Hey, so I was thinking, maybe one of you guys should run a game. I'm getting tired of DMing all the time, and I'd like some Player time. Cool?" If it's not cool, then you might need to find another group.

When you step up to the DM plate, you are a part of the game, but you've accepted that you are a different part of the game than the players are**. Don't cry about it later.

I've never made a movie, but I still know when one is crap. Just because someone hasn't DMd much or at all doesn't mean they can't criticize the game.


* I too distinguish between the concept of the DMPC that I see people complain about and an NPC that happens to hang with the party.


** It's my understanding that there are several games out there now that reduce the divide between player and GM responsibilities. perhaps something like these games would be more appropriate for GMs who feel they aren't part of the game in a player-like fashion enough.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

However, if the character makes themselves useful ALL the time, for EVERY encounter. IS SCENE STEALING.

So if the NPC is constantly with the PC's, helping them fight during encounters they are scene stealing? Sorry but that's a bit of an extreme view and one that I don't agree with. If the NPC is out shining the PC's in those encounters then yeah, I agree. You're implying simply by being useful that they are.

But when the character is the ONLY one who has the needed knowledge, always has knowledge about the pertinent situation, or is always steering the party in the ‘right’ direction IS SCENE STEALING

So wait a minute, if the party isnt inclined to use divination spells or are the worst clue readers ever, a NPC who tends to steer them in the right direction or a trusted source of information is a scene stealer? Once again we're in disagreement here and that may have to do with playstyles as well. I'm a DM that likes to keep things moving in a forward momentum unless the PC's are having fun going on a tangent then I tend to let things play out. But if my players need to move forward and they need information to do so and seem at a loss I don't think think that there's anything wrong with them consulting with someone that they know knows more than they do.

Then there are the artists that understand that they are nothing without the audience. The critics are unfortunately a fact of life, like maggots or mould. Being the DM doesn’t give you the right to do anything you want. It’s a tool to allow you to be creative as your imagination will allow. The trick is being imaginative, creative, entertaining enough to help create a story with players. The GM is nothing without the players. A GM without players is just another unpublished writer.

I'm trying to entertain my players. But also as importantly I'm trying to enjoy myself as well. It's a delicate balancing act that needs to be acknowledged and personally as both a DM and player for over 20 years I've seen alot more selfish players than I have selfish DM's. So I tend to cut DM's a bit more slack when it comes to things like this. As a DM, I'd just as soon as NOT run a game at all than to run a game for players that are selfish and really don't take the DM's enjoyment into consideration as well.

Another thing that people aren't taking into consideration is that for me at least, trying to find out what players want in a game is like trying to pull teeth sometimes. The amount of times that I've gotten "I'm good with whatever" or "whatever you want to do" dwarfs the amount of times I've gotten any real input. Even when there's things that they obviously dont like (I've learned to read players for things like that and try to make changes accordingly) they don't tend to speak up. Is it passive aggressive gamer syndrome? because I'm certain that they complain to someone. Basically, what I'm saying is this if you as player dont like the DMPC let the DM know, just straight up "Your DMPC is hogging the spotlight that is rightfully ours", if he doesn't take it into consideration then , seriously, Just walk. Like I said I'd rather not play than to play in a game I'm not having fun with.

Otherwise coming onto a message board and complaining about it really does nothing to resolve the issue at hand. Unless your DM is on the board as well. The above wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, it's just a general observation.

 

[Elf Witch]

So if the NPC is constantly with the PC's, helping them fight during encounters they are scene stealing? Sorry but that's a bit of an extreme view and one that I don't agree with. If the NPC is out shining the PC's in those encounters then yeah, I agree. You're implying simply by being useful that they are.




So wait a minute, if the party isnt inclined to use divination spells or are the worst clue readers ever, a NPC who tends to steer them in the right direction or a trusted source of information is a scene stealer? Once again we're in disagreement here and that may have to do with playstyles as well. I'm a DM that likes to keep things moving in a forward momentum unless the PC's are having fun going on a tangent then I tend to let things play out. But if my players need to move forward and they need information to do so and seem at a loss I don't think think that there's anything wrong with them consulting with someone that they know knows more than they do.




I'm trying to entertain my players. But also as importantly I'm trying to enjoy myself as well. It's a delicate balancing act that needs to be acknowledged and personally as both a DM and player for over 20 years I've seen alot more selfish players than I have selfish DM's. So I tend to cut DM's a bit more slack when it comes to things like this. As a DM, I'd just as soon as NOT run a game at all than to run a game for players that are selfish and really don't take the DM's enjoyment into consideration as well.

Another thing that people aren't taking into consideration is that for me at least, trying to find out what players want in a game is like trying to pull teeth sometimes. The amount of times that I've gotten "I'm good with whatever" or "whatever you want to do" dwarfs the amount of times I've gotten any real input. Even when there's things that they obviously dont like (I've learned to read players for things like that and try to make changes accordingly) they don't tend to speak up. Is it passive aggressive gamer syndrome? because I'm certain that they complain to someone. Basically, what I'm saying is this if you as player dont like the DMPC let the DM know, just straight up "Your DMPC is hogging the spotlight that is rightfully ours", if he doesn't take it into consideration then , seriously, Just walk. Like I said I'd rather not play than to play in a game I'm not having fun with.

Otherwise coming onto a message board and complaining about it really does nothing to resolve the issue at hand. Unless your DM is on the board as well. The above wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, it's just a general observation.

I think what you are missing is not that the NPC helps in the battle or helps solve the puzzles it's that he does it all the time and better than the PCs. That's scene stealing.

The DMPC when in battle hits harder than the party fighter when he tosses magic he is better than the party mage ect ect its great to have help. But the DMPC should not always be better than the party.

Its great when an party npc can help solve a puzzle that has the party stumped it helps move the game along but when he solves ot becase he has info that he didn't share or he solves before giving the party a chance to then that is scene stealing.

As for players not speaking up I think part of that is what I like to term players guilt. They know that the dM has put a lot of work into the game and are loathe to complain about it. They don't want to upset their friend.

And sometimes some people feel that a bad game is better than no game and they are afraid that if they complain to the DM they will be kicked out of the group or they have a DM who is oversenstive and reacts badly to any thought that he might have made a bad call or is doing something wrong.

And I have played in a lot of games and have found that yes there are selfish players and because their are more of them than DMs the law of averages say that there will be more selfish players than DMs but I have seen selfish judgemental DMs so unlike you just because you sit behind the screen I won't cut the DM anymore slack than I will a player.

As I have said before you can't have the game without both DMs and players. I have heard many times that the advice that is you have a bad DM walk away from the game. But it is also true of DMs if you have bad selfish players walk away stop playing the abused DM and walk away.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I think what you are missing is not that the NPC helps in the battle or helps solve the puzzles it's that he does it all the time and better than the PCs. That's scene stealing.

The DMPC when in battle hits harder than the party fighter when he tosses magic he is better than the party mage ect ect its great to have help. But the DMPC should not always be better than the party.

No, I'm not missing that at all. In fact that was part of my initial post.

Reading this thread makes it seem like D&D Players are just a bunch of whiney children or there really are a lot of BAAAAAAAD DM's out there.

I've been playing and DMing since the early 80's and almost every DM that I've played under has had NPC's as part of the party. I've never had to deal with a scene stealing NPC, or maybe some of the stuff that people consider scene stealing is stuff that I dont.

If the NPC makes him/herself useful during the game and encounters: NOT SCENE STEALING.

If the NPC has Knowledge that can help the PC's or steer the PC's in the right direction: NOT SCENE STEALING.

If the NPC is constantly saving the PC's bacon while the PC's are seeming ineffective: SCENE STEALING.

If the NPC is better at EVERYTHING than the PC's are: SCENE STEALING.

I think that we might actually be in agreement about certain elements of this and just not know it.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

As for players not speaking up I think part of that is what I like to term players guilt. They know that the dM has put a lot of work into the game and are loathe to complain about it. They don't want to upset their friend.

See that doesnt apply in my case because my freinds would tell me what they want. As of lat I've been basically running games fro people that I've met off the net and message boards , so there's no attachment there. I've made it very clear that input is welcome.

And sometimes some people feel that a bad game is better than no game and they are afraid that if they complain to the DM they will be kicked out of the group or they have a DM who is oversenstive and reacts badly to any thought that he might have made a bad call or is doing something wrong.

But then that's on them for hanging around and being part of something that they arent enjoying. I have a simple motto, if youre doing something for fun and it stops being fun, it's time to stop doing it.

And I have played in a lot of games and have found that yes there are selfish players and because their are more of them than DMs the law of averages say that there will be more selfish players than DMs but I have seen selfish judgemental DMs so unlike you just because you sit behind the screen I won't cut the DM anymore slack than I will a player.

Fair enough. I'm admittedly biased because I know the work that goes into prepping a game whether good are not and it's something a lot of players seem to take for granted.

As I have said before you can't have the game without both DMs and players. I have heard many times that the advice that is you have a bad DM walk away from the game. But it is also true of DMs if you have bad selfish players walk away stop playing the abused DM and walk away.

Which is something as I have stated before I have absolutely no problem doing. Life is jsut waaaaaay to short to be doing something for fun that isnt actually, well, fun.

 

[Lanefan]

So if the NPC is constantly with the PC's, helping them fight during encounters they are scene stealing? Sorry but that's a bit of an extreme view and one that I don't agree with. If the NPC is out shining the PC's in those encounters then yeah, I agree.

Agreed, with 2 exceptions, both from my own experience as a player. 1. The high-level NPC that is in the party due to the party's own actions. (an adventure once consisted of us getting to the skeleton of a stupendous-level Paladin and resurrecting it...he was 23rd-level, we were around 3rd-5th, and let me tell you getting out of there was a whole lot more fun than getting in!) 2. An NPC rolled up just like a PC (same level, etc.) that has just got lucky over time - her base stat rolls were good, her h.p. rolls have always been good, and so on (and rolled in front of us) and who has run with the group long enough to build up some starch.

So wait a minute, if the party isnt inclined to use divination spells or are the worst clue readers ever, a NPC who tends to steer them in the right direction or a trusted source of information is a scene stealer? Once again we're in disagreement here and that may have to do with playstyles as well. I'm a DM that likes to keep things moving in a forward momentum unless the PC's are having fun going on a tangent then I tend to let things play out. But if my players need to move forward and they need information to do so and seem at a loss I don't think think that there's anything wrong with them consulting with someone that they know knows more than they do.

and have the NPC be wrong sometimes, too...that way, the players won't come to rely on it...

I'm trying to entertain my players. But also as importantly I'm trying to enjoy myself as well. It's a delicate balancing act that needs to be acknowledged and personally as both a DM and player for over 20 years I've seen alot more selfish players than I have selfish DM's. So I tend to cut DM's a bit more slack when it comes to things like this. As a DM, I'd just as soon as NOT run a game at all than to run a game for players that are selfish and really don't take the DM's enjoyment into consideration as well.

Another thing that people aren't taking into consideration is that for me at least, trying to find out what players want in a game is like trying to pull teeth sometimes. The amount of times that I've gotten "I'm good with whatever" or "whatever you want to do" dwarfs the amount of times I've gotten any real input. Even when there's things that they obviously dont like (I've learned to read players for things like that and try to make changes accordingly) they don't tend to speak up. Is it passive aggressive gamer syndrome? because I'm certain that they complain to someone.

Well said, and reflective of my own experiences...except that making changes to suit one player often annoys another, and so the balancing act goes on...

Lanefan

 

[Dagger of Lath]

Dagger of Lath - to me, DMPC and Mary Sue are synonymous.

My point is that if they are synonymous then the term DMPC needn't be applied to that phenomena, and there are useful definitions of DMPC which cover ground that NPC is too broad to specify.

To me, it's not even really a case of the NPC being more powerful than the party.

Indeed there should be people in the world vastly more powerful than the PCs. The villain should certainly be more powerful (yet somehow lose at the last minute, or in 1% of games win... just to keep people guessing )

Actually, I'm going to backtrack a bit about the Mary Sue thing. A DMPC doesn't necessarily have to be better than the PC's. However, to cross from NPC to DMPC requires that the NPC become the primary actor in many situations. When NPC's you meet talk to the DMPC first, when the DMPC begins giving orders to the PC's, when treasures found are tailored to the DMPC, then there's a problem.

Yes, the rule in our group is that your character can only gain treasure/special abilities/etc when you're a PC. That way people can't drop items for themselves while they're GMing.

An NPC that starts with the party and stays for a long time isn't necessarily a DMPC. Filling niches with NPC's doesn't mean that there's a problem. Filling niches with a DMPC is always a problem.

In my opinion, a DMPC is simply an NPC who travels with the party filling the role of a member of said party. Cohorts operate under specific rules (and belong to one PC above all others) and the terms hireling and henchman have been killed for me by Nodwick plus they're not all that appropriate if the person isn't hired or henched.

I think we need a term for an NPC who travels with the group in that fashion, so that we can discuss the Mary Sue problems that can crop up and warn people off of them. Or discuss the good ways of including a niche-filler.

Just remember that there are groups out there (like mine) which round-robin GMs and thus everyone in the group needs a PC.