Explain why DMPCs are bad to me.

[LostSoul]

Everyone who plays D&D should spend half of their time running games as a DM.

I couldn't disagree more.

Everyone should do what they find fun.

 

[LostSoul]

My current GM constantly has a DMPC with us, and it is a pain in the ass to constantly have him chime in during the planning sessions with what is clearly "The Plan" or ordering us around because (like all of his tag-alongs) he (or she) is a plain-talking, common sense straight-shooter who understand things better than the PC's.

I once ran a game where an NPC joined the party. He'd chime in when they were planning and all that.

But the players knew that I was playing this NPC with an agenda. He'd suggest things that he wanted to do. (He was Evil, and the PCs were Good, and one of them had a Detect Evil ability - he'd always ask, "Do I detect any Evil around here?" I'd reply, just that NPC.) The players knew that his "suggestions" were Evil ones, and I was just trying to tempt them into doing Evil stuff.

That's what he was there for - this guy is obviously evil, but he's helping you out to further his own, Evil agenda. How long do you want to keep him around? As much as he's helping you, you're helping him.

 

[Imagicka]

I think what you are missing is not that the NPC helps in the battle or helps solve the puzzles it's that he does it all the time and better than the PCs. That's scene stealing.

The DMPC when in battle hits harder than the party fighter when he tosses magic he is better than the party mage ect ect its great to have help. But the DMPC should not always be better than the party.

Thanks for clarifying that for me... That's what I get for not proof-reading my own stuff. But hey, I'm trying to write this stuff while I'm doing my job.

Your analogy reminds me of a set of books I used to read as a kid. Doc Savage.

Doc Savage, whose real name is "Clark Savage, Jr.", also known as "the Man of Bronze", is a physician, surgeon, scientist, adventurer, inventor, explorer, researcher and musician — a renaissance man. A team of scientists (assembled by his father) trained his mind and body to near-superhuman abilities almost from birth, giving him great strength and endurance, a photographic memory, mastery of the martial arts, and vast knowledge of the sciences. Doc is also a master of disguise and an excellent imitator of voices, though he admits to having trouble with women's voices. "He rights wrongs and punishes evildoers." Dent described the hero as a mix of Sherlock Holmes' deductive abilities, Tarzan's outstanding physical abilities, Craig Kennedy's scientific education, and Abraham Lincoln's goodness. Dent actually described Doc Savage as manifesting "Christliness."

Doc made everything look easy. In one story, "his hand drifted out at lightning speed." It sounds like an oxymoron, but Doc's fans knew what it meant.

All of his friends were the best at everything... Ham... the world's best lawyer... next to Doc Savage... Monk... the world's best chemist... next to Doc Savage... Johnny... world's best archaeologist and geologist... next to... you guessed it... Doc Savage. -- I kept asking myself, *Why the heck are these guys hanging around this guy? Better yet, why is this guy hanging around with THEM?*

As for players not speaking up I think part of that is what I like to term players guilt. They know that the dM has put a lot of work into the game and are loathe to complain about it. They don't want to upset their friend.

And sometimes some people feel that a bad game is better than no game and they are afraid that if they complain to the DM they will be kicked out of the group or they have a DM who is oversenstive and reacts badly to any thought that he might have made a bad call or is doing something wrong.

Yeah... that's always a problem I've always faced too. Then I started asking the players what they thought about the game. I'd ask them before, when I'd invite them into my game, or when we're making characters. Then I'd ask them a few sessions into the game. If I felt the game could allow it, I'd ask everyone together, at the table. If I needed to, I'd ask them separately. I want my players to have a good time... and if that means changing the style of the game so they get more of what they like... more dungeon-crawling... more roleplaying... more politics... I'm happy to try and give that to them. Because some of my players will sit there and say 'oh, everything is fine... I'm having a good time...' -- I don't understand why people think I'm going to kick them out of the game because they aren't having fun.

 

[Hussar]

I dispute that a Mary Sue NPC and a DM-PC are the same thing -- I've seen them both.

In both my regular game, and the regular game of the other DM in the group, there are NPC party members who share in the XP and treasure as if they were PCs, as well as get their occasional moments to shine. In his case, the NPC is a fighter who's dumb as a brick but we wouldn't want to adventure without him. In my case, the NPC is the party cleric, and his primary role is to pull the other players' fat out of the fire -- and they love him for it. (And he's been captured and rescued, taken below 0 hp and given emergency healing, etc., just like any PC.) I think of him as "my character" in the party, but he is just another member of the team.

By contrast, I played in a convention game where the first part of the session was the players (all playing 3rd-level characters) coming upon a scantily-clad barbarian chick who was under assault by bandits. Fair enough, we went rushing to the rescue only to end up standing around watching as she hacked them to pieces, getting a minimum of two attacks per round -- three if she got to use Cleave. The rest of the session was devoted to us following her around as she took on a mission from a sorcerer and recruited us all to go along, wiped out the monsters that attacked us on the way, and of course got to all the neat stuff first.

The DM in question was so clueless that I don't think he ever quite got why I started referring to her as "Mary Sue, the Barbarian," but she was a clear example of the kind of thing that people get so riled up about. However, she was a very different creature from the our big dumb fighter or rescue cleric, respectively.

-The Gneech

Me, I'd call the first two NPC's and be done with it. If there is a character run by the DM and there are no problems around the table, then that character is an NPC. There can be short term and long term NPC's, but, in the end, they are still just non-player characters.

A DMPC is a term which specifically points to problem NPC's. Trying to use the term in a non-perjorative sense just seems counter productive to me since NPC works perfectly well. True, a DMPC doesn't have to be a Mary Sue - more powerful and effective than the PC's. But, a DMPC has to be a problem character otherwise, it's just an NPC.

When playing round robin DM's, turning a PC into an NPC is fine. The DM's character simply fades to the background and becomes a whole lot quieter for the duration. However, when the DM starts having the DMPC order the party around, telling (not suggesting, telling) the party what the best idea is, then its a problem.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Everyone should do what they find fun.

Yeah, I think that wording is over the top but the underlying sentiment - that every player should understand the increased difficulty of dming - is pretty valid.

A player without a grasp of what being a dm is about is a potential problem player.

 

[Nightfall]

*will just accept the fact he's not going to use NPCs mixed in with the PCs when they are adventuring.*

 

[ThoughtBubble]

Me, I'd call the first two NPC's and be done with it. If there is a character run by the DM and there are no problems around the table, then that character is an NPC. There can be short term and long term NPC's, but, in the end, they are still just non-player characters.

A DMPC is a term which specifically points to problem NPC's. Trying to use the term in a non-perjorative sense just seems counter productive to me since NPC works perfectly well. True, a DMPC doesn't have to be a Mary Sue - more powerful and effective than the PC's. But, a DMPC has to be a problem character otherwise, it's just an NPC.

When playing round robin DM's, turning a PC into an NPC is fine. The DM's character simply fades to the background and becomes a whole lot quieter for the duration. However, when the DM starts having the DMPC order the party around, telling (not suggesting, telling) the party what the best idea is, then its a problem.

So, you're saying you wouldn't have a specific categoriztion for an NPC who travels with the party, gains one share of xp and loot, and gains whatever special benefits the rest of the party does (ie: free room and board at the town they rescued)?

 

[rounser]

Fortunately, the way to get rid of DMPCs is easy: have all the real PCs attack them at once (have an unscrupulous and annoyed member of the party set them up if there are paladins or other ethical characters involved). The DM is then forced to choose between the campaign and their Mary Sue.

Even if the DMPC teleports away, or indulges in similar deus ex machina to avoid both TPK and the DMPC dying, it's a wakeup call that's difficult to ignore (although some DMs will throw a tantrum over why the players are "ruining the game").

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Back in my first year of DMing I had a DMPC. Fortunately I came to my senses when I realized that the players were waiting to see what the character would do before doing anything themselves.

First I had him make a few really bad decisions, then, when that didn't work, I smashed him flat with a five ton block of stone. (After having him flip a coin before deciding which way to go.)

Even then the players didn't believe that I had really killed him until they found the room directly below the fallen stone, the ceiling cracked and broken, and bits of the DMPC oozing out of the cracks.

The DM is already the director, producer, and walking scenery. He does not need to be the star as well. (The worst I have ever encountered was a Storyteller in a LARP, he eventually had to be kicked out of the game that he had helped start. Dealing with that is one of the major reasons that I no longer play any LARPs.)

The Auld Grump

 

[Nightfall]

*still could use players in his Thursday IRC chat game!* If only because I promise no DMPCs at the moment!