Explaining 3.5 to a 2nd Edition Veteran
- Thread starter Nareau
- Start date
ThirdWizard
First Post
IMO saying "forget everything you learned" isn't all that useful. It's like saying "forget everything you know about the english language" when you're trying to teach a native english speaker the spanish language. It's different, but those preconceved notions won't go away just because you want them to. And, they shouldn't. They arn't that different of games. You gain xp and levels, use hp, AC, saving throws, wizards use Int, clerics Wis. A paladin is still a holy knight and a wizard can still specialize in one particular school.
The differences lie in the execution, the concepts. Like higher is always better. Tell them that and they can start to extrapolate that higher AC is better, higher saving throws are better, etc. You don't have to re-explain what a saving throw is, just what the new types are and when they come up. Attacks of Opportunity weren't a concept invented in 3E, they were in 2E Combat and Tactics, but they're different now. They'll have preconceved notions no matter what, so I think its best to try and anticipate what these notions are so that you can be ready for when they rear their ugly heads.
The differences lie in the execution, the concepts. Like higher is always better. Tell them that and they can start to extrapolate that higher AC is better, higher saving throws are better, etc. You don't have to re-explain what a saving throw is, just what the new types are and when they come up. Attacks of Opportunity weren't a concept invented in 3E, they were in 2E Combat and Tactics, but they're different now. They'll have preconceved notions no matter what, so I think its best to try and anticipate what these notions are so that you can be ready for when they rear their ugly heads.
MrFilthyIke
First Post
It's not fair to bash 3e when Spider has a valid question. Follow the first few posts, ignore those that state everything must be forgotten. You've got the basics covered.
Akrasia
Procrastinator
MrFilthyIke said:
What is your problem? Nobody is "bashing" 3e by pointing out that it is has so many differences from pre-3e D&D that it may be helpful to simply approach 3e as an entirely new game.
That 3e is radically different from pre-3e versions of D&D is a simple fact. IME it has much more in common with Rolemaster than RC D&D.
To point this out to someone does not constitute "bashing" 3e. Rather, it is pointing out a simple fact -- one completely independent of 3e's relative merits.
MrFilthyIke
First Post
Akrasia said:
I never noticed any similarity to RM except for cross class skills. I had to have that pointed out too, and I used to play RM. I read the 3e PHB, thought to myself "wow, all the things I was house-ruling when I ran d&d" are now in a book format. Mind you, I had not touched d&d since '95 having gone to favor Vampire and Cthulhu.
But the leap to 3e was very easy. I didn't expunge anything I already knew, just settled into the new groove and went on playing as before.
I wish I could remember the issue of Dragon that had the "Explaining 3e to 2e players" article, it helped makes things easy to understand.
Akrasia
Procrastinator
Actually, the entire skill system is ripped out of RM -- just replace the d100 with a d20. It is amazing. (As an old RM hack, I could go on, but I won't bother here...)MrFilthyIke said:
MrFilthyIke said:
Yes, how wonderful for you.
However, you should realize that it is generally a mistake to generalize on your own individual experiences.
For many other people, the differences between 3e and pre-3e D&D are enormous. The 'rolling high is always good' is really trivial -- that is not a big issue. The big issues include: feats, skills, new multiclass system, new spell system, radically different combat system, and a few other things. Taken together, these constitute a radical shift in the way the game is played (e.g. it pretty much requires minis now; combat takes much longer; fighter-mages are useless; etc.).
But back to my original point -- simply pointing out that 3e is radically different from pre-3e D&D is not a 'bash'. And it may help someone with deep 'pre-3e' intuitions to simply approach it as a different game.
William Ronald
Explorer
1. Feats: I would explain a feat as something like a skill that a character has particularly worked on or a natural talent. For example, I would liken some skills to a character having decided to specialize in a weapon or a skill. This uses something that a 2nd Edition player knows about (weapon specialization) to help explain a new concept. Analogies probably will prove helpful, Spider.
2. The higher the better: This applies to AC, Base Attack Bonus, and skill rolls. Generally, explain that to hit an armor class or succeed at a skill, you have to either equal or beat the AC or the difficulty class.
3. Races: No more level limits, which is something I suspect a lot of 2nd Edition groups ignored. I could never see the justification for them. Similarly, it is possible to play against 2nd edition archetypes. A dwarven wizard in a 3.5 game can be a formidable character. (The constitution bonus helps with hit points.)
4. Saving Throws: Simplified to three categories: Fortitude: Anything that you have to make your body resist, such as poison or energy drain. Reflex save: Anything you can jump away from, such as a fireball. Will save: You have enough willpower to say no to the Count Dracula wannabe.
5. Classes: The classes are designed to be more closely balanced with each other. Thus a 1st level caster is generally good for more than just one spell. Skills also tend to make a character more viable, level per level, than in 2nd Edition.
6. Categories of effects: Certain types of effects, such as energy drain and the like, work similarly between different creatures.
7. Damage Resistance: Certain materials overcome damage resistance of a given creature better than others. Even if you don't have a silver weapon, you might still be able to beat a werewolf. (Under 1st and 2nd Edition rules, a character without a silver or magic weapon could not damage a lycanthrope.)
8. Armor: Bulkier armors, such as plate, tend to limit how much dexterity you can put into your armor class. Similarly, there are different types of AC modifiers, such as armor, deflection, and natural armor.
9. Bonus types: Bonuses of different types stack. Bonuses of the same type, such as an enhancement to strength from a magic item and an enhancement to strength from a spell, do not stack.
10. Some things are still the same: Try to point out similarities in concept between different ideas. Demons and devils are 2nd edition creatures, and a demon may be a baatezu. Paladins are still heroic, but their abilities are different from their 2nd Edition counterparts. Again, using analogies between editions help.
11. Prestige classes: Explain this as something like a subclass that someone choses to specialize in. For example, a player may chose to have a character focus on some skills at the expense of other skills.
Spider, good luck with the new players! I hope this helps.
2. The higher the better: This applies to AC, Base Attack Bonus, and skill rolls. Generally, explain that to hit an armor class or succeed at a skill, you have to either equal or beat the AC or the difficulty class.
3. Races: No more level limits, which is something I suspect a lot of 2nd Edition groups ignored. I could never see the justification for them. Similarly, it is possible to play against 2nd edition archetypes. A dwarven wizard in a 3.5 game can be a formidable character. (The constitution bonus helps with hit points.)
4. Saving Throws: Simplified to three categories: Fortitude: Anything that you have to make your body resist, such as poison or energy drain. Reflex save: Anything you can jump away from, such as a fireball. Will save: You have enough willpower to say no to the Count Dracula wannabe.
5. Classes: The classes are designed to be more closely balanced with each other. Thus a 1st level caster is generally good for more than just one spell. Skills also tend to make a character more viable, level per level, than in 2nd Edition.
6. Categories of effects: Certain types of effects, such as energy drain and the like, work similarly between different creatures.
7. Damage Resistance: Certain materials overcome damage resistance of a given creature better than others. Even if you don't have a silver weapon, you might still be able to beat a werewolf. (Under 1st and 2nd Edition rules, a character without a silver or magic weapon could not damage a lycanthrope.)
8. Armor: Bulkier armors, such as plate, tend to limit how much dexterity you can put into your armor class. Similarly, there are different types of AC modifiers, such as armor, deflection, and natural armor.
9. Bonus types: Bonuses of different types stack. Bonuses of the same type, such as an enhancement to strength from a magic item and an enhancement to strength from a spell, do not stack.
10. Some things are still the same: Try to point out similarities in concept between different ideas. Demons and devils are 2nd edition creatures, and a demon may be a baatezu. Paladins are still heroic, but their abilities are different from their 2nd Edition counterparts. Again, using analogies between editions help.
11. Prestige classes: Explain this as something like a subclass that someone choses to specialize in. For example, a player may chose to have a character focus on some skills at the expense of other skills.
Spider, good luck with the new players! I hope this helps.
Here is something that is a conceptual issue that I found to be one of the most important (and best) improvments in the game.
Experience is a team concept. What I mean is that characters (and players) are not longer in competion to see who can get the kill (fighters in 2nd ed) or steal the most treasure (thieves) or cast the most spells (just about any spellcaster). The award is based on accomplishing the task at hand. Either defeating an opponent (doesn't always mean kill) or situation (like trap). It is in everyone's best interests to work together so that everyone can gain.
Basically 3.5 awards for team play vice individual play - like 2nd ed did.
Experience is a team concept. What I mean is that characters (and players) are not longer in competion to see who can get the kill (fighters in 2nd ed) or steal the most treasure (thieves) or cast the most spells (just about any spellcaster). The award is based on accomplishing the task at hand. Either defeating an opponent (doesn't always mean kill) or situation (like trap). It is in everyone's best interests to work together so that everyone can gain.
Basically 3.5 awards for team play vice individual play - like 2nd ed did.
MrFilthyIke
First Post
Akrasia said:
Sorry, my comment was not aimed at you or your post, I've learned not to discuss 3e with certain member of this forum.
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