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D&D 5E [+]Exploration Falls Short For Many Groups, Let’s Talk About It

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
My solution to the whole exploration problem goes in the opposite direction-- don't focus on game mechanics, focus on narrative. On description. On ideas. I mean that's pretty much what we already do... but I think we then get so hung up on trying "gamify" those ideas that they supplant the actual usefulness of just describing what is happening out in the world and letting the players think of ideas to get around or use those things, no dice rolls necessarily being necessary.

You describe to your players that they are approaching a fast-moving river... how the trees cover a lot of the area around it, the river being a certain width wide, the rapids flowing over the rocks many of which are sticking up out of the water sharp and deadly were you to hit them, a large tree trunk currently spanning one section of the river allowing the party to cross. A complete narrative description of the situation. No die rolls needed.

What happens now? Well, normally the players will start coming up with ideas on how best to cross the river. They will think of narrative ideas that make sense for this scenario, they may start flipping through their character sheets to see if they have anything written on them that will trigger additional ideas on getting across the river. All of those are great! I think that's what we want! Yes, at a certain character level they might be able to "fly" across the river because they have "powerful spells"... but so what? That's the idea the players came up with! They determined they had the magic available to make it across this scenario-- weighed the cost of spending the spell slot(s) against the possibilities that might have come from failure-- and all agreed together on their idea for "solving" this narrative puzzle.

So why does this situation need "mechanical support"? Does having some set of "game mechanics" to insert into this scenario actually make this scene better or more interesting? Would this scene be improved with the DM saying "Okay! Skill challenge time! Give me your ideas on how to get across the river and make a skill check connected to them... four successes before three fails and you make it across!"... thereby completely removing the players from imagining themselves within the scenario to now purely thinking of things in game terms? Figure out their best skill checks and then jerry-rig a reason to align that check to the scenario at hand? Or if not a Skill Challenge, then the DM inserting the rules of a "Hazard" that has been given to us, written up in the DMG, which essentially gives us the same thing as a skill challenge-- identifying a series of skill checks to pass that theoretically make sense for a generic solving of this issue, but do not in any way, shape or form align to the actual narrative the DM described of the scene, nor the ideas the players come up with. The "Raging River" Hazard says the group has to do X, Y, and Z to complete the challenge and the DM has to "force" those X, Y, and Z bits into the situation even if the players make no mention of those ideas because that's the "mechanical expression" of this Hazard the game has given us.

This kind of thing is exactly why I find all the complaints about requiring "DM Adjudication" to be missing the point. Because DM Adjudication is what created this scenario in the first place... DM Adjudication described all the incidents and issues the scenario presents... DM Adjudication is what will take the ideas the players come up with and then create mechanics on the spot to determine how good those ideas were... DM Adjudication is listening to your players and reacting to what they do. There's no random chart to roll on, no pre-written list of skill checks to follow, no paragraphs giving the DM all the ways to circumvent the use of magic the players might use to try and "solve" this scenario. Instead it's just presenting the scenario, listening to their ideas on how to get past it, maybe rolling a couple checks directly related to the ideas they throw out if necessary... and then you move on. The characters make it across the river, or maybe one falls into the rapids and starts getting pulled down the river forcing the rest of the team to go chasing after them. And then the DM Adjudication starts all over again (rather than the DM needing to grab some random book that has the "PC being dragged down the river" hazard listed out with the five mechanics skill checks players have to do to rescue the other one.)

While I understand that having lists of hazards or traps or other "game rules" are good at helping teach DMs how a scene like this could play out and the mechanics that could be used to solve these situations... I really think it's better if that's all they are-- just examples for teaching purposes. And that the DM should merely understand conceptually what they are meant to do, but are not proscriptive in how to do it. But rather they should use their DM Adjudication to run these scenes and scenarios on their own by reacting to what the players do and then coming up with their own ideas of what happens next. After all... coming up with ideas is the hallmark of this game... so to me, anything we can do to facilitate players and DMs actually getting to do that by bouncing off each other is always going to be the most enjoyable and successful way to go.
Narrative without mechanics is just collaborative storytelling. That's not a game IMO, and playing a game is why we all got together tonight. Also, the process you described would work the same way for combat, so it's more an alternate way (and probably a fun way) to spend your evening than it is a playstyle for D&D exploration, IMO.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Something to remember too is not to get too tied up in refuting examples. Because it’s endless. You manipulate the setting so Comprehend Languages isn’t a problem? My GOO warlock giggles at you because he can speak every language to any being that has a language. Couple of levels and written languages stop being a barrier.

That’s the point when people bring up examples. The list is never ending. There’s always one more spell or effect or racial ability or whatever.

And you can’t just keep allowing the casters to dictate the campaign.
It's generally not about making something impossible, though. It's about not making it super easy to accomplish. If someone has to take that GOO warlock(God that sounds bad) in order to speak all languages, that's a heavy character investment and assuming I have a problem with characters easily speaking any language(I don't), I wouldn't have an issue with that class/subclass doing so. That's a far more meaningful investment that a bit of gold on a comprehend languages or tongues scroll.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Well to reiterate and remain positive, there is one side of exploration that has mechanics, advice, and examples galore and one side with barely anything.

There is a magic spell that lets you translate any language.

There isn't a language that cannot be understood if translate it with a magic spell because it is always written in cyphers and only someone who actually speaks it can understand the hidden meaning.

Now you have a goal to find someone who speaks Shadespeak
Except that yes there is. The DM just has to make it up. The spell comprehend languages very specifically doesn't decode secret messages in a cypher.

"This spell doesn't decode secret messages in a text or a glyph, such as an arcane sigil, that isn't part of a written language."

Natural language doesn't come into being with cyphers being needed, but an artificially created one used by the BBEG and his lieutenants would. The PHB also does in fact have secret languages that can only be understood by those who speak it. Thieves' Cant(PHB page 96). Unlike the secret druidic language which explicitly says that it can be understood by magic, there is no such provision in Thieves' Cant.

The DMG also mentions creating new languages(including secret languages) on page 20, Dark Speech in the Book of Vile Darkness, and mentions languages so alien that they threaten to break a character's mind on page 263.
 

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
does anyone else think that comprehend languages is too powerful/useful for being a first level spell? given that it manages to obviliate a large section of a kind of obstacle, is it a convenience that we've just come to expect having?

could comprehend languages be, say, a third level spell that only works on spoken language and only begins to work on written text when upcast to fifth, and would it be better for gameplay that way?
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
does anyone else think that comprehend languages is too powerful/useful for being a first level spell? given that it manages to obviliate a large section of a kind of obstacle, is it a convenience that we've just come to expect having?

could comprehend languages be, say, a third level spell that only works on spoken language and only begins to work on written text when upcast to fifth, and would it be better for gameplay that way?
Yes, yes, and...yes, that's a cool idea. I may borrow that.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
does anyone else think that comprehend languages is too powerful/useful for being a first level spell? given that it manages to obviliate a large section of a kind of obstacle, is it a convenience that we've just come to expect having?

could comprehend languages be, say, a third level spell that only works on spoken language and only begins to work on written text when upcast to fifth, and would it be better for gameplay that way?
I don't think so. The benefit of comprehend languages, as I see it, is to enable the players to get information, lore, backstory from their adventuring environs. All things I don't really want to gate behind something they can only get after they hit 5th level. Requiring it to be upcast to the same level as a teleport circle just to read text seems extreme.
 

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
I don't think so. The benefit of comprehend languages, as I see it, is to enable the players to get information, lore, backstory from their adventuring environs. All things I don't really want to gate behind something they can only get after they hit 5th level. Requiring it to be upcast to the same level as a teleport circle just to read text seems extreme.
yeah but why do we even have languages known then if we're only going to use a 1st level spell to immediately translate anything that we don't already know how to read?
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
yeah but why do we even have languages known then if we're only going to use a 1st level spell to immediately translate anything that we don't already know how to read?
Because it still grinds some resources to do it (time if not spell slots), nor is it all that useful when skulking around and eavesdropping on conversations. For that, it's better to know the language.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Something to remember too is not to get too tied up in refuting examples. Because it’s endless. You manipulate the setting so Comprehend Languages isn’t a problem? My GOO warlock giggles at you because he can speak every language to any being that has a language. Couple of levels and written languages stop being a barrier.

That’s the point when people bring up examples. The list is never ending. There’s always one more spell or effect or racial ability or whatever.

And you can’t just keep allowing the casters to dictate the campaign.
Seriously man they don’t have to.

Like the reason there is always a refutation is that none of this stuff works all the time, and a lot of it is more limited than folks think.

Like being able to read all writing still doesn’t confer knowledge of cyphers, cultural knowledge, context, etc. if someone has the ability to read all languages great! That means deciphering the text isn’t the challenge, and sometimes there won’t be challenge where you might like there to be, but it’s a group game. Every single PC should be dictating the campaign.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Narrative without mechanics is just collaborative storytelling. That's not a game IMO, and playing a game is why we all got together tonight. Also, the process you described would work the same way for combat, so it's more an alternate way (and probably a fun way) to spend your evening than it is a playstyle for D&D exploration, IMO.
You absolutely could run Combat this same way, with only a few checks rather than this combat mini-game we have. And many RPGs do that, because they aren't "monster fighting games" like D&D essentially is (because the biggest mechanical ruleset in the D&D game is the monster combat fighting system.) But I am suggesting that creating a Exploration mini-game like we have for Combat will not accomplish things the way people think they want... because the narrative and description and coming up with ideas and solutions are what make Exploration what it is (and the Social pillar what it is for that matter.)

You may decry this as "collaborative storytelling"... but I believe that's exactly what RPGs are. It's why D&D is not entirely a board game made up of nothing but mechanical mini-games. Combat? Absolutely a board game mini-game. But as soon as you turn Exploration and Social into mechanical mini-games too... all of D&D just becomes going from one mini-game to another... the DM lining them up, the players playing them, and then they all moving on to the next one. Leaving character and story and imagination and ideas completely behind.

If some people want to play Exploration the same way they play Combat, more power to them. Personally I think they would be missing out entirely on what makes an RPG an RPG, but hey, whatever floats their boat. But I'm suggesting that narration, description, and ideas with a few checks sprinkled in here and there to determine whether those ideas were good makes the game so much more interesting than just playing those mini-games over and over again.
 

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